Alternative ways of skinning the "clothes/breast" cat?

Rafmer

marble said:

Rafmer said:

But there is a built-in solution in Daz Studio, it's called Dforce. Cloth simulation is the best posible fix for this problem. You are just missing a one-click timeline creator that zeroes any pose or breast morph at the beguinning.

In my experience, dForce maintains the cloth distortion created by the larger bust and the under-bust crease. Those distortions often just droop downwards as the drape is simulated.

I have seen that happen too with some garments. I'm not sure why; maybe in the early dforce clothing or in those pieces that are both dforce and conforming. In any case; dforce seems easier to me in most cases; but if it gives me trouble, I switch to VWD and it's done.

Richard Haseltine

Rafmer said:

marble said:

Rafmer said:

But there is a built-in solution in Daz Studio, it's called Dforce. Cloth simulation is the best posible fix for this problem. You are just missing a one-click timeline creator that zeroes any pose or breast morph at the beguinning.

In my experience, dForce maintains the cloth distortion created by the larger bust and the under-bust crease. Those distortions often just droop downwards as the drape is simulated.

I have seen that happen too with some garments. I'm not sure why; maybe in the early dforce clothing or in those pieces that are both dforce and conforming. In any case; dforce seems easier to me in most cases; but if it gives me trouble, I switch to VWD and it's done.

If the item has modelled pouches to go over the breasts then that is what will simulate - dForce can't improve the basic modelling.

charles

Chumly said:

RGCincy has some good results. 
I have been thinking about it too, and since I really don't understand all that well how/what Daz does what it does "under the hood" maybe I am chasing my tail...

Regardless, I exported a g8 to Zbrush and played around a bit... just as a proof of concept. And then imported back to daz as morph.  I put a GF8, with breast enlarged next to my morphed up one.  While it might not look it inthe pictures, both models have about what is the same size... intended to be a realistic/larger size

I then put some different clothes on em... I had the best results with dForce clothing, though I didn't simulate any of it, just put the clothes on the manequinn and adjusted smoothing

Again, I really don't know what I am doing....

The above was a slinky loin style dress, that didn't have a plunging neckline so it looks pretty good.

The last was a sports top... mixed results.  On some of the non dForce clothes, it almost looks like there is a third boob in the middle.  I guess this is how daz reads the morph... I don't know how to adjust auto follow...

This one really gives a good example of what is wrong with both approaches.  I am kind of curious how Daz hasn't come up with a built in solution yet, to a problem that is almost as old as the software.

This is actually a really good solution.Because of the diversity in modeling from the breast shapes themselves to the clothing on top, there isn't going to be a 1 trick pony. 

It's probably going to need some helper morphs to go with, like raising and lowering the mid chester area. But overall great work.

 

pjwhoopie@yandex.com

Thanks Charles!

I guess I keep getting back to.  When your model is clothed, you could probably get by with 4 or 5 basic breast shapes (Flat, Small, Med, Large, Jumbo?).  I don't have any Data to back me up, but I would bet that the vast majority of western women wear bras daily - when outside of the home (especially business settings).

The bra gives support/uniform (generally) shape etc...

So, to me, we are complicating things by trying to force physics to make clothing look realistic when it would be easier to just change the underlying structure that the clothing has to go around.

Again, I am not talking about the "other" type of renders/customer base that needs clothing free shapes, but for normal renders of clothing or armor, it just seem silly to have autofit or whatever is happening, figure out underboob etc in its calculations.

But in my experimentation, it seems difficult (or, I have no clue how) to make auto fit igore what it thinks a GF8 Looks like, and just go with what is actually there...

How do I get auto fit (or whatever it is fitting the clothing) to see the figure I have on the left?  And not put clothing where it isn't?

I assume now, that it is because "Point A" on my morph isn't where "Point A" is, on the standard GF8..... so to get my shape on the left, Point A is now "down 8 centimeters and to the left 3 centimeters" so the math of autofit just moves the part of the clothing that covers Point A to where ever point "A" is... right?

If that IS the case, is there a way for the end user to tell Autofit/Whatever where point A really should be?

charles

Yup you are pretty much right about the autofit.

This apparently has been going on a while, dug up this old thread which talks about Projection morphs and they were doing for this exact same issue.

https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/157691/resources-for-understanding-creating-projection-morphs

I got inspired and wanted to play with this some too, so started making some in Blender.

 

My problem the base shape of the character I'm using, the body morph itself. Even if I zero out all the breast related morphs the body morph still has significant changes to it that make it difficult So I'll have to either make morphs specific to that body by exporting it instead of the base G81 or remove the body's influinces on the verts for the breast. OR There's X glove, maybe...gotta find that in my file mess where I stashed it.

I'll probably just edit the body morph itself as doing this in blender takes less time then it did to write this.

 

 

pjwhoopie@yandex.com

Would it be possible to create it as a Geograph... and then "re-map" it so that autofit would put the clothes where I wanted them?

PerttiA

Chumly said:

How do I get auto fit (or whatever it is fitting the clothing) to see the figure I have on the left?  And not put clothing where it isn't?
 

If you look at the morphs that are made for fitting clothing on a figure, the morphs have been imported twice, one with autofollow on and the other with autofollow off (and set hidden) and they are linked, so that when you dial the one with autofollow on, the other one is dialed the same amount but negative value - This way the figure stays unmorphed, but whatever clothing that is fitted to the figure, follows the morph with autofollow on. 

Matt_Castle

Chumly said:

I guess I keep getting back to.  When your model is clothed, you could probably get by with 4 or 5 basic breast shapes (Flat, Small, Med, Large, Jumbo?). 

The core problem with this is that the mechanism of morphs is an additive one, not a replacer. Unless every character vendor provides a shape to reset the breast shape to as close to default as possible*, then you still fight with the character shape.

(In this respect, I rather wish that the standard breast morphs had been a part of the base figure and not an add-on, so that it could be policy for characters to use those shapes as a starting point so that clothing vendors could create corrective for those shapes, rather than nearly every figure using its own completely unique shape).

* That said, most core figures kinda do have a morph for this. They all come with a "Breasts Gone" corrective that when dialled in on its own will reset the breast shape to close to default on most of them. (As it has to undo any breast shape changes to once again flatten the chest).

~~~~~

Anyway, as far as this, it seems that some of you may be stumbling around in the dark a bit as far as what shape projection morphs should actually be. So, for reference, Whisky's projection morph, as seen in this earlier picture...

... has an internal shape that effectively changes her shape from this: (Sorry, I did these pictures with a quite short perspective on, so they're not as great as they could be, and would take me some time to redo, but hopefully they help)

to this:

And because it's a bit difficult to visualise from the still images how the vertices move, have one of the oddest GIF images I've ever had to make:

 

 

pjwhoopie@yandex.com

While we are at it... 

I know there are a bunch of nipple assets (especially at 3rd Party Vendor Sites)...   but when you morph the breast, you in turn morph the nipple area.

Would the be any joy in having a system where the nipple was applied... kind of like a pasty?  So it would be independent of the breast structure and mesh/texture limitations.  You could place it where you wanted, enlarge, decrease etc etc.

Possible?