PA's please have G8 options in new G8.1 characters
psfilipe
Posts: 164
in The Commons
Or us folks that have a somewhat stable 4.12 will have to skip the entire 8.1 generation? 
So, PA's, by all means sell G8.1 characters... Just please have an alternate G8 option in there.
And, no, I won't be upgrading to 4.20 so soon.
Horror stories abound and quite frankly the idea of upgrading in the middle of a huge project is way too risky.
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I get the concern...however the biggest hurdle here I would think is the UV map. If the PA wants to use a skin made specifically for 8.1, then the skin wouldn't work on an 8.0 character. This is because the detail for the back of the head and neck would be missing as with 8.1 that detail is on a completely separate map. If a PA were to make a character available for both 8.1 and 8.0, then they would need to use skin that would work with both UV maps and not one that has that separate back of head/neck map.
While I understand the OPs plight, if it increases the PAs workload and makes then price go up because of that, I say no. While I understand the reasons for not moving to 4.20 (I haven't myself) that is "your" choice which means you have to deal with any consequences that comes from that choice.
That being said and touching on what Melissa posted, I am fully into 8.1, but I am getting really tired of finding base female (G8) UV mapping on 8.1 characters. There isn't much difference between G8 and G8.1 and the UV mapping is the biggest, so if the PA can't be bothered to use the correct UV maps, don't call your new character G8.1, it isn't and DAZ needs to enforce this.
You could always use the Public Build (Beta, though currently it's the same as the General Release) for 4.20.x.x, keeping your General Release at 4.12, at least until you can assess the significance of the "horror stories."
maybe someone like Riversoft could just give us a batch map transfer script that works in earlier versions of DAZ studio.
The few 8.1 characters I have I just did manually for G8 in 4.11 but realise going forward they will all be 8.1, and generally staying unpurchased and saving me money
I am extra weird though, I convert later characters to genesis 1 so shouldn't be thought of as typical
(a combination of autofit, smoothing, morphloader and attenuation)
Some of the G8 characters came with a G3 version as well, so I would think it would be basically the same thing to include a G8 with the G8.1 characters.
Should not be too complicated. Some content creators on the other site are doing it notoriously, e.g. Sabby+Seven (SASE) or Jadyn+Sabby (JASA).
No, not at all. G3 and G8 have the same UV map. G8 and G8.1 do not.
If they are, then the characters they are selling as G8.1 are using the G8 UV mapping.
The problem is, you are getting G8 materials and shaders applied to G8.1 which is completely wrong for those purchasing an 8.1 character because it is lieing to the customer. It's why I stopped purchasing from SASE or JASA.
"PA's please have G8 options in new G8.1 characters".
Please. As in a plea for PA's to consider doing this. Not a demand. A plea.
It's not a huge thing.
It's just that there are specific 8.1 characters that I would like to use in G8.
For instance: AB Incunabulus for G8.1.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a G8 skin for that?
Interesting.
So unless you need high quality close ups of the back of the head/neck then is it fair to say that they're basically the same skin maps?
Not that I care. I just want to render 8.1 in 4.12. Simple as that.
G3 and G8 have different geometry, meaning that for a morph to work on both it would have to be made for both. This is not true of G8 and G8.1.
I wasn't going to chime in, but, as someone mentioned, G3 and G8 have the same UV map, so it's possible to make a material preset for G3 and that will simply work on G8. It doesn't increase the workload for materials, only the morph itself.
The reasons for building a character on 8.1 instead of 8 are (largely) the UV map improvements. They're small but significant (in my opinion). Aside from the improved texel density differential imrpovement between the face and torso via the head/neck region addition, the eyes also have a *much* better UV mapping that allows for a smoother transition of the limbal ring than the base G8 mapping allowed for. The eyelashes are also a new mesh that doesn't share a UV for the G8 eyelashes, but the way it's made gives the opportunity for a much more realistic lash look. Finally, the tear is its own mesh in 8.1, and it is *far* superior to the 8 tear in my opinion. I know not everyone will agree, and that's fine. But as a creator, I want to make the best product I can. For me, that means using the G8.1 UV's, Eyelash and Tear meshes. It also means using PBRSkin for the skin materials which isn't available in earlier versions of DS. I'm sorry y'all don't want to update to 4.20. I think you're missing out, but that's your choice, and I do respect your decision. I only recently updated from Windows 8, so I'm certainly not in a place to chide anyone about updating software :D But if it's any consolation, any of the wearables I inlcude in my stuff (horns for example) are saved out on 8 so at least those can be used on 8 without issues.
This is true, but there are also utilities available to transfer shapes between 3 and 8 easily. It's also super simple to transfer shapes if there's a shared UV.
What can I say...
There are only two things that I care for in my workflow.
1st: Stability
2nd: Speed
Right now my system has both.
I just wish I could render these new 8.1 characters. That's all.
We're not talking about morphs here. We're talking about UV maps. Two different things. G3 and G8 have the exact same base UV map (barring custom UV characters such as Victoria 7, etc). Textures from base G8 can be used on base G3 and vice versa (I do it all the time). G8 and G8.1 do not have the same base UV map...therefore cannot use the same textures interchangeably. G8 textures can be used on G8.1 (with some manual swip-swapping). G8.1 textures (if they are genuinely 8.1 textures) cannot be used on G8.
Personally, I prefer the Uber shader for skin. If I could get 8.1 characters using the new UV with the Uber shader, I'd be happy!
The geometry is the same and all the G8 morphs will work on G8.1 if used on DS 4.15 or newer.
DS 4.15 has been 'taught' to read also the G8 morphs when loading a G8.1 figure.
If one did have the energy, all the non-HD G8.1 morphs could be made to work on G8, but that would need manual editing of the morph files to change the paths and figure name, and moving the morphs to the G8 morph folders. The same could be done with the G8 morphs to get them working for G8.1 on older versions of DS.
HD morphs cannot be edited as they are encrypted.
As long as you are careful to download only the files with the public Build tag (in Install manager, which is the only way to handle the Public Build) then it won't interfere with your 4.12.x.x so you can use that for most things and just fire up the Public Build if you want to use Genesis 8.1
The UV map is just one file "...\Data\DAZ 3D\Genesis 8\Female 8_1\UV Sets\DAZ 3D\Base\Base 8.1 Female.dsf"
Needs just some manual editing and copying the file to the Genesis 8 UV set-folders and the G8 has the G8.1 UV's, the shader needs DS 4.15 or newer though.
One can check the existing (G8/G3) UV maps on how to edit the G8.1 UV file to get the paths and references right.
Is it any easier to transfer a G3 shape to G8 than it is to Map Transfer a G8.1 texture onto the G8 UV?
I know they're different, but you're talking about the UV as if it's an insurmountable obstacle, where I would argue that it's no more difficult to offer a texture for both G8 and G8.1 than it is to offer a morph for both G3 and G8.
Also, it is possible to add the 8.1 UV to G8.
It is insurmountable if the PA is using a merchant resource based on the G8 UV map...or vice versa...on the 8.1 UV map. And lotsalots use merchant resources. The 8.1 UV uses a completely different texture map for the back of the head and neck...that texture map doesn't exist on the G8 UV (it's part of the torso map).
And yes...you can fanagle this stuff to work by changing the base program file structure or copy/pasting around in the file structure. That's how you get the G8 expressions working on 8.1. But can you imagine the hell that would break loose if a PA were to sell a character with added directions to the tune of "in order to get this product to work you have to do xyz in your file structure..."? LOL. You'd have multitudes of people who can't follow directions breaking their Daz installation.
Fanagle ... what a lovely word! And precisely why I have no 8.1 characters. I'm still in the dark about what will work and what won't (skins, geografts, morphs, etc., etc.) despite reading many threads like this one. So the simple solution for me is to stick with G8. My main complaint, however, is that some things that are in the store which, I am assured will work with G8, are advertised as G8.1 with no mention of G8.
Fair enough.
While I do use DIM I'm not entirely sure how to filter the Beta builds since I've never done it before.
Further down the road I might ask you for some assistance...
Getting back to the thread:
PA's, please consider including a G8 option in your new 8.1 characters.
As there are products that can create missing textures for the anatomical elements, I wouldn't be surpriced if some PA would make one that creates G8.1 textures out of G8 and vice versa if there is enough interest for it.
To my knowledge, those products take a "piece" from a neutral area of the torso map to use as a base...which results in varied success. I'm not sure it would be as simple as that for the back of the head/neck. This is because of the way the 8.1 UV displays the texture in that area, as @ChangelingChick explained above.
Just had a look at the textures and compared them and everything can be found on both, just a matter of creating a script that moves the needed pixels to a new location/new file.
The torso/body texture is essentially the same on both, with the head and neck parts cleaned away on the G8.1 texture, but the location of the rest of the body is the same on the image than on a G8 texture.
That would not help without also regrouping the mesh, since the new UV set overlaps areas that on Genesis 8 are part of a single surface group.
So, some more digging into the dsf files needed, but past midnight here already and gotta get to work in 6 hours...
The head map is a completely different size and UV and doesn't just nicely fit onto the body map to create the old G8 torso map.