How to make shirts drape properly on large-chested girls?

lou_harper

I'm trying to put a regular t-shirt on Beverly but keep running into the shrink-wrap effect. On left is the Adventur Outfit top. It's not too horrible but it still doewsn't look natural. And I know it can be done because the same shirt was used for her promo images with a much more realistic way. The one on the right is a different shirt, and this time I also used some modifications to the body. It looks like hot garbage. I tried dforce but it doesn't seem to do damn thing. I looked at the galleries of Beverly and this seems to be a persistent problem–fabric wedged between the breasts, clinging underneath. That's not how real fabric drapes. Is there a way to make them look realistic?

 

felis

My suggestion is to use dForce in timeline, and have the breast dialed down at start, and then dialed up during the timeline.

watchdog79

There are products that can help you available in the store:

https://www.daz3d.com/sy-clothing-morpher-for-genesis-8-female

https://www.daz3d.com/fit-control-for-genesis-8-female-s

https://www.daz3d.com/fit-control-add-on-for-genesis-3--8-female

 

And this too, for when you look at another interesting body part:

https://www.daz3d.com/sy-decrackifier-for-genesis-8

nicstt

I'd make a quick morph in Blender (or an alternative), apply it and use dforce.

 

lou_harper

watchdog79 said:

There are products that can help you available in the store:

https://www.daz3d.com/sy-clothing-morpher-for-genesis-8-female

https://www.daz3d.com/fit-control-for-genesis-8-female-s

https://www.daz3d.com/fit-control-add-on-for-genesis-3--8-female

 

And this too, for when you look at another interesting body part:

https://www.daz3d.com/sy-decrackifier-for-genesis-8

I just realised I have clothing morpher. *facepalm*

Silver Dolphin

Or just don't make them so big. LOL

FSMCDesigns

Silver Dolphin said:

Or just don't make them so big. LOL

...or naked!

FSMCDesigns

felis said:

My suggestion is to use dForce in timeline, and have the breast dialed down at start, and then dialed up during the timeline.

This is my preferred method and works great in most cases

lou_harper

FSMCDesigns said:

Silver Dolphin said:

Or just don't make them so big. LOL

...or naked!

It's really not my usual cup of tea, but custom work, and naked is not an option.

lou_harper

FSMCDesigns said:

felis said:

My suggestion is to use dForce in timeline, and have the breast dialed down at start, and then dialed up during the timeline.

This is my preferred method and works great in most cases

I'm afraid I don't have the patience for it. 

I've been messing around with this and had mixed results. Clothing Morpher–Supermorpher in smart content–kinda works when it's just Beverly, but after I added other body morphs it mostly did nothing. What I discovered is that there are huge differences in products. In the end Aeon Soul's Everyday 2 works the best. It has bunch of morph actions itself. With SY Morpher, Fit Control and dforce I think I got acceptable results.

UHF

I often use clothing

Whatever method you use to fit the clothing. You should export the mesh, and reimport it as a morph tied to the figure's shape. This will make your life easier using the clothing, and it will also make things easier for applying morphs.

rcourtri_789f4b1c6b

lou_harper, I'd try:

https://www.daz3d.com/sy-clothing-breast-helper-genesis-8-female

and

https://www.daz3d.com/sy-universal-breast-helpers-genesis-genesis-2-and-genesis-3-female-s

These are not the same as Sickleyield's Clothing Morphers.  Completely different set of sliders.  Can help with both the "no bridging between the breasts" and the "too snug below the breasts" aspects of the shrink-wrap problem.  Almost certainly less time-consuming than running a dForce simulation or export/import to other apps.

Looking at your sample renders, I think it's unlikely that dForce will really help.  The shirts would need to be looser fitting to begin with.  If the fabric is already stretched tightly over a body part, simulating gravity or air resistance isn't going to do that much.  

felis

Here are 3 images:

1: Shirt just fitted

2: Shirt fitted, followed by dForce simulation

3: Shirt fitted, breast (here character) dialed in during the timeline, and done dForce simulation

And if wanted, you could export the last, and import it as a morph for the shirt.

watchdog79

felis said:

Here are 3 images:

1: Shirt just fitted

2: Shirt fitted, followed by dForce simulation

3: Shirt fitted, breast (here character) dialed in during the timeline, and done dForce simulation

And if wanted, you could export the last, and import it as a morph for the shirt.

Would you mind explaining point 3 in more details, for total dummies like me, please? 

Matt_Castle

watchdog79 said:

Would you mind explaining point 3 in more details, for total dummies like me, please? 

dForce simulation is based on the shape that the clothing starts the simulation with. If the clothing is already distorted at the first tick of the simulation, then it will continue to simulate with that warped initial shape.

You can however set dForce simulation to simulate over the DS timeline, rather than just for a single frame, so you can start the simulation from a non-distorted shape, then change the shape of the character underneath the clothes (auto-follow is ignored on full dynamic clothing during a simulation).

This can be simply dialling out problematic breast morphs on frame zero and then fading them in over the simulation, or starting from (and then fading out) another shape entirely; for one of my characters, I often start simulation for her from about 50% "Heavy" morph before fading that to her actual body shape. Heavy is a very widely supported clothing fit, which means the clothes are large enough for her and don't look stretched, but once the simulation is complete, it is then draped over her own shape.

lou_harper

UHF said:

I often use clothing

Whatever method you use to fit the clothing. You should export the mesh, and reimport it as a morph tied to the figure's shape. This will make your life easier using the clothing, and it will also make things easier for applying morphs.

I have no idea how to do that. 

lou_harper

rcourtri_789f4b1c6b said:

lou_harper, I'd try:

https://www.daz3d.com/sy-clothing-breast-helper-genesis-8-female

and

https://www.daz3d.com/sy-universal-breast-helpers-genesis-genesis-2-and-genesis-3-female-s

These are not the same as Sickleyield's Clothing Morphers.  Completely different set of sliders.  Can help with both the "no bridging between the breasts" and the "too snug below the breasts" aspects of the shrink-wrap problem.  Almost certainly less time-consuming than running a dForce simulation or export/import to other apps.

Looking at your sample renders, I think it's unlikely that dForce will really help.  The shirts would need to be looser fitting to begin with.  If the fabric is already stretched tightly over a body part, simulating gravity or air resistance isn't going to do that much.  

I'll give the Breast Helper a try. 

lou_harper

felis said:

Here are 3 images:

1: Shirt just fitted

2: Shirt fitted, followed by dForce simulation

3: Shirt fitted, breast (here character) dialed in during the timeline, and done dForce simulation

And if wanted, you could export the last, and import it as a morph for the shirt.

That result looks very good, but tbh the process is a PITA. Simulation is pretty slow to begin with.

felis

lou_harper said:

That result looks very good, but tbh the process is a PITA. Simulation is pretty slow to begin with.

I don't know your system specs.

For me it takes 30-60 sec. I previously had a GTX970 and it was very doable on that too. 

lou_harper

felis said:

lou_harper said:

That result looks very good, but tbh the process is a PITA. Simulation is pretty slow to begin with.

I don't know your system specs.

For me it takes 30-60 sec. I previously had a GTX970 and it was very doable on that too. 

Mac. Need to buy a PC soon. Anyways, Breast Helper and cranking up  Mesh Smoothing seems to work quite well.

watchdog79

Matt_Castle said:

watchdog79 said:

Would you mind explaining point 3 in more details, for total dummies like me, please? 

dForce simulation is based on the shape that the clothing starts the simulation with. If the clothing is already distorted at the first tick of the simulation, then it will continue to simulate with that warped initial shape.

You can however set dForce simulation to simulate over the DS timeline, rather than just for a single frame, so you can start the simulation from a non-distorted shape, then change the shape of the character underneath the clothes (auto-follow is ignored on full dynamic clothing during a simulation).

This can be simply dialling out problematic breast morphs on frame zero and then fading them in over the simulation, or starting from (and then fading out) another shape entirely; for one of my characters, I often start simulation for her from about 50% "Heavy" morph before fading that to her actual body shape. Heavy is a very widely supported clothing fit, which means the clothes are large enough for her and don't look stretched, but once the simulation is complete, it is then draped over her own shape.

Thank you. 

marble

I bought, then returned the SY products mentioned above because I had problems using the clothing morph/fixer with characters fitted with geografts (basically most of my characters). Since retrning them there have been suggestions in another thread about how to dial back those geograft distortions but it was too late so I'm still not sure whether it is possible to use them with geografts.

As for the timeline method, that looks to be the best solution and saving it out as a morph might be a good idea too although I have no idea what "tied to the figure shape" means or how to ensure that.

Fauvist

When I have a big chested female, I usually buy clothing that was designed for that type of physique.

richardandtracy

Been learning here. Hadn't thought to use dForce, will have to try it. Thanks. My problems are similar, but with a character who's chest is much less generously proportioned than the standard G8F. The problems caused are related and equally awkward to get over.

lou_harper

What worked best for me, short of animated dforcing, is Clothing Breast Helper, cranking up mesh smoothin, and finishing up with Fit Control.

WendyLuvsCatz

if you are Dforcing the whole thing, you can just send it to Hexagon, smooth it out and send it back as a prop instead of a morph

rcourtri_789f4b1c6b

richardandtracy said:

Been learning here. Hadn't thought to use dForce, will have to try it. Thanks. My problems are similar, but with a character who's chest is much less generously proportioned than the standard G8F. The problems caused are related and equally awkward to get over.

Yes, the problem isn't size per se.  It becomes more obvious as a user moves the sliders toward extremes, but the problem is still there with most clothes when fitted to a figure in their basic/default chest morphs. 

Daz's current figure and clothing technology doesn't appear to make a distinction between tops which fit primarily around the chest (like a bra or bikini top, which would conform closely to breasts) and tops that fit primarily at the shoulders (jackets, sweaters, most shirts, etc., which usually require a different fit between and below the breasts).  I'm not sure why the skirts/pants distinction can be made for the lower body, but all tops are just tops.  I've no idea if Daz is working on a solution.  Neither exporting/re-importing to/from another application nor running a time-consuming simulation (whether it's 60 seconds or 60 minutes) is a great solution for most users.

(I'm just glad no one has suggested "Just fix it in postwork with an image editor" or "You should try making all of your own clothes from primitives.")

Richard Haseltine

rcourtri_789f4b1c6b said:

richardandtracy said:

Been learning here. Hadn't thought to use dForce, will have to try it. Thanks. My problems are similar, but with a character who's chest is much less generously proportioned than the standard G8F. The problems caused are related and equally awkward to get over.

Yes, the problem isn't size per se.  It becomes more obvious as a user moves the sliders toward extremes, but the problem is still there with most clothes when fitted to a figure in their basic/default chest morphs. 

Daz's current figure and clothing technology doesn't appear to make a distinction between tops which fit primarily around the chest (like a bra or bikini top, which would conform closely to breasts) and tops that fit primarily at the shoulders (jackets, sweaters, most shirts, etc., which usually require a different fit between and below the breasts).  I'm not sure why the skirts/pants distinction can be made for the lower body, but all tops are just tops.  I've no idea if Daz is working on a solution.  Neither exporting/re-importing to/from another application nor running a time-consuming simulation (whether it's 60 seconds or 60 minutes) is a great solution for most users.

(I'm just glad no one has suggested "Just fix it in postwork with an image editor" or "You should try making all of your own clothes from primitives.")

Non-dForce items are fitted to the figure - they have the same bones as the base, weights projected from the base controlling which bits of mesh move with the bones, some additional morphs that are triggered by the bone rotations to improve the shape (in both the base figure and in the clothes), and morphs to match the base morphs that are either deliberately created by the maker or automatically projected.

The further the mesh is from the skin of the base, and the more differently it should behave, the worse the ersult will be. Morph custom JCMs can help, Rigidity maps and Smoothing Modifiers can help to some degree with the morph projection, but there is a limit to how far an automated system can cope with divergent behaviour between base and follower.

Daz has an alternative - dForce. Short of that the solution is a lot of adjustment, custom to each outfit, by the original creator, the end-user, or both. There is no simple, easy, automatic, one-size-fits-all solution (any more than there is in tailoring real clothes, for that matter).

NylonGirl

Richard Haseltine said:

Daz has an alternative - dForce. Short of that the solution is a lot of adjustment, custom to each outfit, by the original creator, the end-user, or both. There is no simple, easy, automatic, one-size-fits-all solution (any more than there is in tailoring real clothes, for that matter).

I think this would be less bad if it were made more clear. DAZ and its affilliates always create an impression everything will be easy. Would it kill them to put something in their description that says, "this only works with Genesis 8 in the default shape"?

Maybe it would kill them.  But it seems to be the truth with some of these dForce outfits.

watchdog79

Richard Haseltine said:

rcourtri_789f4b1c6b said:

richardandtracy said:

Been learning here. Hadn't thought to use dForce, will have to try it. Thanks. My problems are similar, but with a character who's chest is much less generously proportioned than the standard G8F. The problems caused are related and equally awkward to get over.

Yes, the problem isn't size per se.  It becomes more obvious as a user moves the sliders toward extremes, but the problem is still there with most clothes when fitted to a figure in their basic/default chest morphs. 

Daz's current figure and clothing technology doesn't appear to make a distinction between tops which fit primarily around the chest (like a bra or bikini top, which would conform closely to breasts) and tops that fit primarily at the shoulders (jackets, sweaters, most shirts, etc., which usually require a different fit between and below the breasts).  I'm not sure why the skirts/pants distinction can be made for the lower body, but all tops are just tops.  I've no idea if Daz is working on a solution.  Neither exporting/re-importing to/from another application nor running a time-consuming simulation (whether it's 60 seconds or 60 minutes) is a great solution for most users.

(I'm just glad no one has suggested "Just fix it in postwork with an image editor" or "You should try making all of your own clothes from primitives.")

Non-dForce items are fitted to the figure - they have the same bones as the base, weights projected from the base controlling which bits of mesh move with the bones, some additional morphs that are triggered by the bone rotations to improve the shape (in both the base figure and in the clothes), and morphs to match the base morphs that are either deliberately created by the maker or automatically projected.

The further the mesh is from the skin of the base, and the more differently it should behave, the worse the ersult will be. Morph custom JCMs can help, Rigidity maps and Smoothing Modifiers can help to some degree with the morph projection, but there is a limit to how far an automated system can cope with divergent behaviour between base and follower.

Daz has an alternative - dForce. Short of that the solution is a lot of adjustment, custom to each outfit, by the original creator, the end-user, or both. There is no simple, easy, automatic, one-size-fits-all solution (any more than there is in tailoring real clothes, for that matter).

 I am afraid dForce hasn't solved much for me. I apparently do not understand it enough, because in most cases at least one clothing item explodes mid-simulation in my scenes.

lou_harper

Somebody suggested dForce Master - Cloth Simulation Presets to me and it's on sale, so I'll give that a go too.