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....need to give him more jerkey.
LeatherGryphon, I like all the options on the table. Dial it up to the ultimate dream machine, and dial it down to minimalist that works. That gives a nice range.
Smaller could be better in a lot of ways. Where to spend it? As I have said, for me two lesser machines get more done than one dream machine because of learning and rendering. And... Personal computers are, well, personal. What works for each is what works. Fun to hear what works for each of us.
...my planned upgrade is also to have a system that is "Windows 11 ready" (I am still on W7 which has pretty much been abandoned). The MB I am planning to get is only 180$. May as well also move to a PCIe 4.0 capable board to get the best performance out of the RTX 3060 I purchased. The reason for going with the12 core 5900X is I also work with Carrara and Wowie's Awe Shading system for 3DL both which are CPU based engines.
Going with a more "up to date" system instead of a "stopgap" is more cost effective and economical in the long run which should serve me well for years (W10 will also be obsolete in about 3 years). Tis iswhy I made the jump to 7 from XP and bypassed Vista. Given the usual life cycle for Windows, W11 will likely be supported through 2032 (extended support). While W10 Enterprise LSTC (the only version of 10 I'd ever consider) will be supported until 2029 but it is more expensive as it requires Volume licensing (minimum of 5 nodes) and not being a "business", not sure If I would even be able to get it (MS is purposely discouraging individual users from puchasing LSTC licences).
Furthermore I plan to do a custom "clean install" (getting an actual DVD of the Pro Edition to install from rather than a download) so I can dump the features I don't need or want at the outset. The only updates I plan to bother with are those for security and full version upogrades..
This is why I stayed with 7 Pro for so long.
LeatherGryphon, I tell you, even a $250 3050 can get some serious work done. I think I finally got my settings dialed in to where a 4 minute render tells me everything I need to know to take another step. Less time depending on the steps. I can render over night for a final (ha! If there is a ever a final) and keep going in the morning. And, yes, how many cards does one need? Even a mini ITX (I would think) could be an awesome machine or second machine. One could likely save $250 going small and buy a 3050. I like "keeping this option on the table" so to speak. For me, learning is long and rendering slow thus two machines beat one any day. My Dell micro ATX machines can take two cards, they are only B550 boards.
Kyoto Kid, I left off rendering in DS some years back in win 7. I think 2008. I left Windows, never to return. However DS brought me back. I had to reconstruct Win 7 and my files of old and earlier DS to continue and move on. I learned a lot. I can tell you for me I am happy to be free of Win 7. 10 was awesome in comparison. 11 is fine too - to early to say if it is better, yet so far it is not worse. With that said, I only use my Win computer for DS and nothing else. For example right now I am laying on a couch with my iPad writing you. I have gotten the impression "workstation" allows you tell win not to reboot anytime it wants for updates. I keep the network unplugged while in DS unless I need something from DAZ or a driver because of that.
Apparently in California they differently...
...personally I find W7 to be almost "invisible" no feature bloat like 10, no updates every 6 months that could introduce bugs, no ugly UI. no useless features that you couldn't get rid of without crippling basic functions. I looked long an hard at it when it was introduced, and over the succeeding years watched complaints come in from users (particularly those with older hardware and/or DIY systems like mine) and said "no".
Had I "upgraded" back then, I would have received the Home Edition (as I had W7 Home Premium at the time) which at the time pretty much meant handing MS full control of your rig. No thanks. I was really strapped for funds at the time so I couldn't afford the Pro Edition which was only marginally better (you could defer feature and revision updates and that was about it).
In all the years I've worked with W7 I rarely had an issue, even a BSOD (and then it usually was due to a buggy Nvidia driver update). I don't need all the bells & whistles I would never use. W7 had very little "fluff" compared to 10 and I was able to dump what I didn't need (even deleted the games folder) without hamstringing the OS. The only updates I would install were the security ones (and then only after reviewing each KR# file to see if there were bugs reported). I'd simply hide the feature updates each Patch Tuesday as I found none of them useful.. This is why a decade later my old system has been running smoothly Oh there were a couple component failures, a hard drive, a display, and a PSU, but none of that had to do with the OS. Were it not for the fact that W7 has been pretty much abandoned (it will happen with Daz as well, if anything because of Iray and Nvidia drivers) I'd just stay with it. The upgrade I'd do would be more for expanded memory, adding a 10 or 12 core Haswell Xeon, as well as look into a Quadro P6000 with 24 GB. of VRAM, and pretty much be content.
The bottom line, I don't need the OS to be some sort of "all encompassing, do everything environment", I just need it to run the software I use.
I look at the OS the same way.
I've recently upgraded my couch gaming / VR PC from a trusty old 4790k to an MSI PRO B660M-A WIFI micro ATX board and 12400.
I was aiming to buy the non wifi ATX version of the same board and a 12400F but I got a bundle deal for the above with free shipping that came in at about 40 local currency units less.
The micro ATX version has slightly less connectivity but I only wanted one PCIe slot, one M.2, a couple each of sata and USB, 3 fan headers and wired LAN so it worked out well.
The best bet for you right now is to NOT lock yourself out of an upgrade path with your RAM/MoBo/CPU, I plan on saving up for DDR5/AM5 and a Ryzen ?900x or whatever it's going to be named, AM4 is a dead end as far as upgrading is concerned!
You will also need a beefy PSU (80+Gold at the minimum) for both the CPU/GPU AND any other components like the mobo, HDDs and the like, for example, I personally would go with a 1.2k or 1.6k Watt as I have more than 12 HDDs as well as an RTX 3090, but you would do well with a 1k Watt as you aren't a gamer, but even so, a large capacity PSU has the advantage of powering your rendering as well as any other multitasking you might do while waiting for your render to complete, as you don't want to be stuck with your PC out of commission while waiting for a 3-hour render job!
Plus, with the new 4k GPUs coming out soon, as well as AM5, 850W will not cut it, unless you want your system to always be on the edge of going over your power limit while only being able to do one task at a time... :P
And whatever you do, don't listen to the 650W PSU crowd over at PCMR, as they're always prattling on and on about never needing more than 650W!
Over the years I have shifted to embracing the OS as I have to have one. ...Or more.
I have Ubuntu, Win 11, Mac OS, IOs etc. I am happy with all of them, yet take care not to load any drivers or programs or updates that are not direct from the source. They have been working great including all their updates for years and years. I will say, Windows of all of them has a lot of extra stuff.
Takezo_3001, I have been feeling like a case and power supply are some of very rare longer term investments in this ever changing computer world we find ourselves in.
A decent power supply is a worthy investment and I myself will likely target 1200 watts or more for ATX or larger boards that are for rendering and might have two GPUs. Although I would like to think the wattage should be going down that is not always the case for some segments of the computer industry like 3D rendering. Since I have more than one computer for 3D it makes interesting to try to decide where to invest.
I just read that PCI 6 spec is out and 7 is on track to be out in 2025. The goal being to double the speed every 3 years.
Yeah, I made sure to get a case, purely for function, not fashion, as I don't even have a side window, just a 230 mm fan in its place! ;)
And it's a behemoth, at 21.89 x 9.14 x 22.84 inches and 30.4 lbs, with 4 230/140 mm fans this is a really cool case!
@Takezo_3001. ...as I mentioned, still on W7 here using tech that is over a decade old. Also on a much tighter budget than I was on when I built that system The next generation hardware will be more expensive. DDR5 is about twice the cost over DDR4 (comparing Corsair Vengeance DDR5 5200 to DDR4 3200) . The Zen4 CPUs are projected to be more expensive than Zen3 as well and have a higher TDP (170W vs. 105W for the 5900X) which pretty much requires more expensive water cooling.
It's going to be enough of a stretch just to afford the update I outlined earlier in this thread .
@VitalBodies ....its all that "extra stiuff" over the base OS that I don't need.
Kyoto Kid, I heard there are well respected scripts that take all that extra stuff out, although I have not tried them.
...I'm just going to dump them when I do the clean install.
Anyone buying anything extravagant? Like a liquid cooler with a built in display or a power supply with a read out that tells you about the power used? Or whatever catches your fancy?
...not really, pretty basic, not even any RGB stuff.
However, the CPU cooler is a rather impressive piece of engineering:
Rated to 250W so it will easily handle the 5900X
The coming generation's iGPUs will be a wash (mostly) for RT rendering / AI, but future iGPUs won't be static targets and will be doing RT rendering & AI. Not as good as discrete cards but with both intel and AMD now supporting iGPUs as standard it's pays to choose the better of those especially with regards to Blender, Marvelous Designer, and other 3D software.
Did it once, got it out of my system. My next PC was small and blacked out. That's me done for at least 5 years unless I do a GPU swap at some point.
That cooler really is pretty amazing.
Nonesuch00, do you know off hand what Blender needs to render? Does it need an Nvidia card for example?
oddbob, nice succession of machines. I notice you went from liquid cooling both CPU and GPU to air. Was the a story with that you care to share? Like budget, or sound pressure noise or liquid just was not needed? I am hoping to reduce fan noise and have found a three fan liquid cooler is quieter than a one fan version - however, My non-iquid cooler did not stand a chance with 5900X. I have not tried many of either so my conclusions could be wrong.
I am not sure if I would do anything extravagant this round but if I did it would likely be the case. I like to keep my overall art studio looking nice and case adds to that. I am still pondering open frame vs not. Plus, case in point, I like cases. I also feel they are the long term investment.
Currently nVidia is the discrete GPU with all and longest support but AMD is working it's support of Blender to be more bug free. It really irked me when Blender dropped support of non-RDNA AMD GPUs but of course you can use older versions of Blender easily.
Thanks, and the answer is all of the above.
The first PC is my main one, I used the AIO cooler because an air cooler that could cope with the CPU would have covered up most of the flashy RGB bits. It's had a few GPUs in it, my old 1080, a 2080ti that I got cheap and currently a 3090FE. The 3090 was too loud for my tastes so it got a water block. I'm not a fan of the typical watercooled look so it got black tubing, fittings and res.
The second one lives under my TV and is mostly used for gaming. It usually gets the cast offs from the main PC. It's a P300a case because it's just about the smallest case that takes full size parts and has decent cooling. It's also pretty unobtrusive. There was no need for water cooling. The 2080ti came with a good cooler, I stuck a cheap tower cooler on the CPU and bought a five pack of P12 fans. Two in, two out, one on the cooler. It's very quiet. If I ever put the 3090 in there it will be - interesting.
Be wary of CPU coolers with screens, that Asus one works fine and looks pretty but it's controlled by a connection to a motherboard USB header which limits the fan control options and locks you into the Asus software.
Like you say, a case in an investment. I've got a few around up to about 20 years old. Think one is about to become a NAS. The best ways to limit case fan noise are not to be anywhere near the PC at all, how often do you physically interact with your PC? Or you could use an open frame test bench or something like the Thermaltake Core P series which is somewhere between a bench and standard case.
Nonesuch00, thanks. I have been wondering about that.
Oddbob, what did you notice going from a 2080 to a 3090 in Daz Studio? Ya the display on coolers. Some compain you have to have an account AND be online all the time too for it to be used. I like the P series. I like that they work in three orientations including wall mounted.
I read up a bit on M-ATX VS ITX VS ATX. Seems like the main difference is pci slots other than the ITX only has only two ram slots.
Thus only one GPU slot on the ITX and Two (if you choose wisely) on the M-ATX. More on the ATX depending on the board.
Looked into aluminum cases a bit also, most top out at the M-ATX and you have to choose components (cooler, ps and gpu) with care because of size constraints.
I keep far away from AIOs I rather stick with air coolers, as AIOs have too may EXPENSIVE points of failure which could be catastrophic for your system!
@KyotoKid: Yeah, early adoption is always too expensive which is why I'm waiting 'til DDR5 becomes more of the standard, that way the prices will come down eventually, I mean I'll be saving up for over a year so by the time I can upgrade, prices will have equalized!
It has been said the crypto miners are "dumping" GPUs onto the market. Anyone seeing any great deals? I did a brief check on eBay and nothing jumped out at me for "recently sold" for the keyword searchs I tried.
...I would normally hold out for prices to come down but W7 is pretty much become a piece of history. Still works fine in my book, just that nobody supports it anymore. If I have to make the jump to an "OS as a service", I may as well cut one learning curve out of the mix and just go to the next step now. Again that's what I did after Xp and never had an issue, however 7 was not as much a radical departure from Xp as 8, 10, and 11 are from 7
Also not really sure the speed advantage of DDR5 is really all the beneficial for working in Daz and rendering to justify paying nearly twice as much (or even say 150% of the cost over DDR4). The advantage seems more important for gaming or scientific stuff and I don't do games nor weather/ecological modelling (or even animation). DDR4 3200 is still a reasonable step up from DDR3 1333 which I have now.
Going to keep 7 Pro on the other machine (also protected by the same AV software) so I can get online while I dump as much "ballast" as I can during the Install of 11 and make sure it works without any instabilities before I reinstall Daz and reconnect the Library drive. My aim is to turn on the machine and when it's fully woken up click on the Daz Studio icon and get back to work without jumping through a bunch of hoops or dealing with other interruptions because this feature or that feature wants attention first.
On my Android Phone I did away with Google Assistant as it kept connecting to the Net in background burning through my data allotment (a lot of it was just rubbish or things I could check by using the appropriate app, not into being "spoon-fed" as I'm not 2 years old). Haven't experienced any instability and the phone seems to react a bit quicker as less resources are being used.
I'm sort of in the market for another modern graphics card. I have a nice, 3-fan, 12GB, RTX-3060-OC in my DAZing machine,
but I need (um, "want" is a better word) another one for my secondary machine.
Although I'd rather spring for a 12GB RTX-3080 if one came on the market for a peasant's price. I'd put the 3080 in my DAZing machine and move the 3060 to my secondary machine.
HOWEVER, I'm a little leary of ex-mining GPUs. The MSRP for a brand-new, basic 3060 is something like $350, so a heavily used one that is still priced at $300 is not very attractive. Yeah, it tickles my itch but not enough to spring for it. I'd rather pay a bit more and get one with a warrantee and fewer scorch marks.
But if used GPUs started appearing at around $200 I'd rethink my options.
...for some reason I'm now seeing lots of adverts for 12GB 2060 GPUs, and they're about the same price as the 3060. Weird!
Seems I unloaded my AMD Radian 570 8GB and my nVidia GTX 1650 6GB at the right times.
Interesting, there seems to be no deals to be found by any of us. New at EVGA was better than anything I saw for the same price.
I agree with LeatherGryphon that the price would have to be really attractive to go that route. I saw a headline about memory issues with some the miners cards coming onto the market also. I saw a lot of overpriced cards like Prixat too.
SIDE NOTE: On a different part of the forum Richard mentioned that we do not need to use an @ symbol before the name to indicate to the person they were mentioned or being written to.
Future proofing. Any thoughts on that? My take is that other than cases and power supplies being longer term investments the market is going towards USB-C (Thunderbolt / USB 4) with the emphasis on less and less ports in time. Examples might be an iPad Pro or MacBook Pro having very few yet very capable ports = only USB-C (USB 4 & Thunderbolt). Same will happen with devices like the iPhone where dust and water resistance matters. This allow devices to shrink in size also. The customer can then buy what ever they need as an add on rather than paying up front for countless ports. Thunderbolt 4 now can work with hubs rather than just daisy chained I noticed. Plus charging is a big deal and USB-C allows for that. For me, if I buy a new monitor (that is not a TV) I would try for one with a USB-C port. Same with external hard drive enclosures or even a SD card reader etc.