Fed up with awful and ancient scene tab
marble
Posts: 7,500
This is a long-standing source of frustration with DAZ Studio. I click on something in the scene tab and nothing happens. Or everything happens - i.e. a whole bunch of unintended items are selected. Or the wrong thing happens: the thing I selected suddenly becomes parented to something else (and I have to search for it). I have reported this to support (as ever - no action, no update ... I really don't know why the stock answer here for every complaint is to report it to support as there will be colonies on Mars before any action is taken by the DAZ team).
I used to think that maybe my mouse was too sensitive but it is clear that this only happens in the DAZ Studio interface - the mouse is fine for everything else I use on my PC. Also, it only happens in the scene tab. All the other tabs select and de-select just fine. The problem seems to be a lag and/or an over-sensitivity to movement which causes an unintended drag-and-drop action or multiple selection. I'm pretty sure the problem gets worse with every new update to DAZ Studio. I know this has been discussed here before and I am pretty sure that I am not the only one to report it. I also know that the UI QT version is very old but do we really have to wait for DAZ Studio 5 for any improvement?
Just letting off steam, I know nothing will be done as a result of a forum post (or 100 posts about the same thing).
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Comments
I use DAZ scene tabs ALOT for years. TBH, have never had that issue as described at all.
Maybe post a few examples of what is happening? This does sound more like a mouse issue? A different mouse may be worth checking. Even mid to high end mice will often work differently for each user. Can't have enough mice anyway, lol.
Also, can say the scene tab is actually something that requires constant attention & care, especially with bigger scenes. It's like a script.
My only complaint is not having a "Confirm" message showing quick what is being deleted. In past, accidentally had figure selected too higher up the scene tab. And it had lots of geoshells which meant edit undo resulted in having to redo the surface visibility. Had to retrain myself to be careful to look over big scene asset list before deleting.
I do know that not everyone has this problem and I have no idea why not. I have several mouses (mice?) in a drawer - including wireless, wired, trackball, etc. - and I have the same problem no matter what. I also had the problem before I upgraded my PC with new motherboard, CPU, GPU, etc. If it is a sensitivity setting, then I don't know where to look. But I repeat, it only happens in the scene tab and only in DAZ Studio - my mouse (a quite expensive SteelSeries mouse) works perfectly well in other apps, games, image-editing software, etc.
Yeah, deleting is also a pain when CTRL-Z does not bring it back to its previous state. Very annoying.
Do you maybe have hotkeys setup on your mouse?
I have had the multi-selection issue, but not the non-selection issue. The re-parenting sounds like an unintended mouse movement. In any event, issues need to be reproducible or reasonabl;y predictable before they can be tracked down and fixed - intermittent things like this are extremely dificult to resolve.
I know, I spent 30 years in computer tech support so "reproduceable" was a mantra. My point was that others have had similar problems (even you) so tech support or the devs should be able to play with the sensitivity a bit. I agree about the unintended mouse movement but, again, the point was that I don't have that problem elsewhere. Image editing using a mouse is not recommended but I do it (although I have a pen now for more serious drawing). The mouse behaves very well in an image editor so if I have unintentional hand twitching it doesn't seem to affect my precision in other applications.
[EDIT] The non-select left-click is definitely NOT reproduceable at will but I have just seen it again in my Scene Tab. I clicked on a figure and nothing happened. Clicked again and again - still nothing. I then clicked on something else in the heirarchy and that was selected so I went back to the original figure and clicked her - this time she was selected.I'm wondering whether this might be a problem with my DAZ Studio installation although it happens in the 4.15 General Release and the 4.20 Public Release (I have them both installed).
Not sure if you know this as you didn't say. Steelseries Engine has sensitivity adjustments ie. CPI. Plus assignable hotkeys, like frame selection, or whatever you want, yada yada.
Making a video showing other apps and hand-twitches not affecting selection sounds like it could be illuminating.
Otherwise think it's a matter of mouse-click. Which seems a Windows-based level attribute (as you probably know, DS piggybacks on many of windows settings).
If still an issue after tweaking and testing CPI etc, you would have to show that between Windows and your Mouse Engine Options that it's still not enough. Given DAZ's user base probably has alot of retired well paying folks supporting it, may be worth investigating more?
Also without a customizable font size yet in DS, on a big screen res, the lines on the Scene Tab can be tight depending on your desktop settings, so accuracy seems more important.
Ok thanks - I admit that I did not understand the relevance of the SteelSeries CPI settings so I'm reading about it now. I had mine set to around 2000 so I might need to reduce that. I've never seen that adjustment on my other mouse products but that doesn't mean they didn't have that adjustemt setting.
wowa, 2000cpi? lol. You must be a hardcore RT online gamer
go all the way down to 400cpi and work your way up IMO
400 seems too low as there is a noticeable lag as I move the mouse. I'm trying it at 800 for a while to see if it helps.
Noticeable lag sounds really odd. Slower yes, but lag?
My 800cpi is actually super fast and never lags. Play games on hard settings, so am pretty fast.
Hopefully 800 works for you.
I also find that the Scene Tab is too fast at selecting multiple items, and parenting items too. If one item is selected, and then a 2nd - often the one is then parented to the other. Not always ... and not all parentings make any sense whatsoever. I also have been through many mice.
Yes, this is my experience too. I'll see if the mouse CPI setting makes a difference but I'm now finding it difficult to move around with my mouse inside DAZ Studio with the lower (thus slower) CPI settings. Outside of DAZ Studio I can move around ok with either the fast or slow settings.
That parenting only happens to me when dragging one on the other.
)
So drag happens instead of 2nd click.
Put another way, Not letting go and moving too fast ( most DAZ pros?
Would be nice, now that issue is raised that people focus on this for abit while doing their stuff, or post videos of this if problem remains.
Say focus, cos have found when am forced to make videos, cutting corners is no longer an option.
Then suddenly find some quick error on my part that I was previously too 'busy' or focussed to see.
Guess, maybe, it's possible things are different. Question is it DS or one of the many other configurations?
Still think a mix of ui approaches individual for each person and well-configured input devices need to be checked out.
With DS found best to use clear concentrated clicks.
DazStudio'ing is a very attention-consuming process
K, that is officially wierd to me. That would be a lead though. Cos my mouse at 800cpi is super fast in DS. Wave mouse back and forth ultra-fast and the cursor is almost impossible to see cos it moves so fast with DS active and a loaded scene.
Not sure what all you're getting at here. I know the difference between click and click and drag. I wasn't dragging the one item over to the other. When I do intent to parent an item, click and drag works well. When not wanting a parent to happen, I don't expect it to when clicking, moving the mouse and then clicking another item.
Marble, check your Polling Rate. Low Poll Rate = lag.
Am wondering if Speed isn't the issue. Especially maybe the mouse polling rate?
Just have a hard time accepting that DS works different on Win10 machines. Sorry.
You might have a hardware problem with your mouse. Happened to me to. The mouse buttons get worn out pretty quick on some mice.
I had to change my logitech mouse every two years, BTW.
Try a differnt mouse for testing.
During the 35 years of working and playing with computers, I have ended up with a conclusion that there is just one truly functional mouse - The basic Logitech mouse with 2 buttons, roller and a tail, using the built in windows drivers and without enabling any tricks or gimmicks for it.
I whine about D|S a lot yet I have never experienced this
freeze ups selecting all surfaces ... yes
laggy viewport on some scenes ... yes
but no issues in scene profiler otherwise
I also get the unintentional multi-selection, a whole swathe of items turn orange!
...and the random click and drag, which causes the unnoticed parenting. I'm sure I didn't click anything and I definitely did not hold it down and drag it!
I would agree that this is a possibility were it not for the fact that the mouse works just fine for everything else. It even works fine in DAZ Studio except for the scene heirarchy. I think I would notice if I were to keep accidentally dragging and dropping files in file explorer but that doesn't happen. No multi-select elsewhere either.
I'll say the same about the Logitech M570 trackball. Except for worn out switches which you can replace yourself I've never had any problems with it.
I do experience DS scene tab multiselect too, regularly, but not the parenting thing. Maybe because it easier to keep an M570 trackball from moving the mouse pointer while clicking by simply not touching the ball, with a mouse it's more difficult because you have your hand on it all the time.
Then there are occasionally sticking keyboard keys like shift and ctrl which can interfere with the mouse and cause odd things to happen.
Mac user here, can confirm I have that issue on occasion, especially the multi-select thing. Also, if I work in the surface pane and may have surfaces selected, then happen to hoover over the scene tab without touching any buttons, objects get selected at random. Not to mention the disappearing cursor thingy... Just have to live with it, un-do is my middle name;)
I once wrote a small utility (windows) for testing mouse buttons for double-clicking, can be downloaded here:
https://taosoft.dk/software/freeware/mousetester/index.htm
Note that if you replace switches yourself you can get different qualities which may last 5, 10, 20 or 50 million clicks. This is the 50 million click version (marked (50M) / blue dot) for a variety of Logitech and other brands of mice/trackballs:
https://www.amazon.com/ZCZQC-D2FC-F-K-Mouse-Switch-Switches/dp/B09JRWSFRY/
You can get them a lot cheaper at sites like AliExpress though:
https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20220616014159&SearchText=omron+D2FC-F-K
I don't think this is a mouse problem at all, personally...
I experience ALL of the above mentioned issues, pretty much every time I work in DS. It's been that way for me for a few years, through multiple verions of DS and multiple replacement mice (which all worked flawlessly across my computer experience outside of the DS).
It seems more related to the fact that some amount of mouse input is retained, if any mouse inputs happen while DS is "hung up", "frozen" momentarily, a micro outburst of "Not Responding", etc.
@Marble All of your descriptions are exactly what I experience, and what you mentioned about trying to select a figure and nothing happening is where I think the problem may begin, I'm pretty sure that's the case for me, at least.
The next time you're working and suddenly to click on a node in the Scene Tab does nothing, try just moving your mouse up to pass over the UI in the Upper Right of the Viewport. The mouse pointer changes between an Arrow, a Hand, a Double Ended... Arrow, etc. as you move over the Tabs, The View Selection and Drawstyle menus and View Controls. If the Pointer doesn't change as you pass between these UI elements, you're experiencing some degree of "Not Responding", I imagine, and should wait to see what happens once it "Responds" and you confirm that the pointer is changing as it should again.
These issues have basically changed my habits in DS and created an almost OCD condition of moving the mouse over things looking for these changes in the pointer instinctively, like a lot. It seems with at least the system specs I have, depending on the complexity of the scene and/or presence of resource hungry things like smoothing modifiers, SubD, etc... it can result in a lot of time spent working where to make a small change to a figure's pose, creates a micro "Not Responding" type situation. I can usually tell that a scene is working this way and it's when I'd usually experience the initial problem of noticing that to click on a node in the Scene Tab does nothing.
So I basically always move the mouse Pointer over something to confirm that it's changing like it should before I ever click in the Scene Tab and it has massively reduced the instances of all these issues happening for me. Try paying attention to it for a bit and see if you can confirm that this is part of the prob, all of the prob, none of the prob... Could help to begin to nail something down.
Ah, so glad that you posted your experience which closely mirrors my own.
The trick of moving to the corner of the viewport (where the viewport controls are) is also the solution to the disappearing mouse problem that has been with us for years. So yes, that does make sense in that they are probably symptoms of the same mouse handling problem.
ah yes the vanishing mouse pointer
seems there are just too many variables of how DAZ behaves from rig to rig the developers cannot reproduce
my favourite is the 217 animation range on saved scenes reloaded, it went away a few builds only to pop up again this latest beta, it will probably be fixed next build again and I am honestly not sure submitting a ticket is worth it as I seem to be the only one who gets that quirk.
Its also not consistent same builds between my Win7 and Win10 rigs
i also get this issue.
i have noticed that often one of the items in the parent/child set will be somewhere on my scene list that was nowhere near where the mouse pointer went, e.g. parented to an object further up the list when i am 100% certain that i only moved the mouse downward - so i am certain it's not erratic movements or lazy clicks made by me,
i often have to check Edit > Undo to make sure there's no Undo Parent Change in the buffer... and too many times there is one in there
The only issue I experience, but quite sporadically, is that when I 'do' something within my viewport or scene tab then several unrelated items all end up selected in the scene tab somehow. It doesn't happen often, but when it does then I cannot come up with any logical explanation as to why this might happen. But other than that... I never had any real issues.