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Several posts in this thread say quite specificly that no one else is reporting them - that's not me just diggin up old war stories.
And this statement of yours proves my point.
@Kendall - going to a new version is not fixing the bugs in the version that was promised, especially when the newer version was even buggier for many people, and completely unusable by other who were happy with DS3 and just wanted the bug fixes promised.
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I have to disagree with this last point. ANY change would result in a version increment. Whether that is a "point" increment or a "number" increment is immaterial. The fixes were made. In addition other things were done. Eventually the number and scope of the changes justified a new "release."
Regardless, there are too many people with chips on their shoulders. I've read way too many posts from folks who obviously are looking for any reason whatsoever to create a stink... Whether the reason is true or not.
Kendall
Long post warning.
In my rarely if ever humble opinion, this is true. DAZ started off by making models for Poser but has grown since then by creating Studio and buying Bryce & Carrara. They are, as a company, maturing and growing in a direction that no longer completely fits the Poser universe yet they still produce Poser compatible content. They haven't "forgotten their roots" as someone said on the old forums but are growing in a new direction that expands beyond those roots while still keeping them in mind. I believe DAZ will always make Poser-compatible models on top of their new direction.
Poser has the assorted Mikis, GND, BND and Anastasia who don't map all that well, if at all, to Studio. Do you hear any DAZ people complaining? Yet DAZ introduces ONE model that doesn't map well to Poser and elements of the Poser community get all upset because there's a toy they can't play with nice and easily. DAZ is continuing to release Gen4 products but those Poser users can't see that. They just see Genesis and that it doesn't play well (thus far) with Poser. That's just freakin' being childish. The Poser users with that attitude (who, thankfully, aren't representative of the whole Poser community) should leave if that's how they feel. They have an "All for me and me for me" attitude which doesn't work well in the 3D hobbyist community which a goodly number of us represent.
As to others who've raised complaints about Genesis & Studio 4.x, if they don't meet your needs then don't use them. Yes, Studio 4.x has issues and DAZ is aware of them and they are being addressed. DS3A and the Gen3 & Gen4 are mature and reasonably stable so there's no real reason to abandon them if you don't want to. Other users - those using Maya et al - are the same. I'm not saying not to express an opinion. That's simply wrong on so many levels. I am saying that expressing it as if we all are bound by the same rules isn't appropriate. (That includes mine as expressed here.) We all have different projects and preferences. We all have different wants and needs from the products we use. If something's not working for you then don't use it. Seems simple enough to me.
What do I have? DS 2.3, 3A and 4.5.0.114 (with the new Beta waiting to be loaded). I have Gens 2, 3 and 4 characters (although I've never loaded D3. Maybe I should?) but didn't bother with Gen5. I have GenX with the Gen3 & Gen4 whatzits to use instead. With them, I have Ironman13's fixes for V4 (the whole set) which really make a huge difference. I also have P7 and plan to add PP2010 when I can get the cash. (I can't afford PP2012 and won't be able to until it goes into end of life cycle when the next version is out.) Bryce 7P and Carrara 6P are also available but not loaded at present. There's also the usual assortment of freebies which a number of us downtrodden masses have so we can make like we're playing with the big boys. ;-) Anyway, I keep Poser at hand because it can do things Studio can't or has things that allow me to do stuff a lot more easily, the Face Room being an example. I'm more comfortable with Studio but that's probably because it's what I started with - DS3 & DS4 Beta, to be exact. (Of course, there are those who would say that DS 4.1 was nothing more than a post-Alpha pre-Beta for DS 4.5 but I would never say such thing. I may think it though. *snicker*)
Oh, well. I've said enough to raise the ire of the Moderaptorial Entities. Wonder if I'll get bounced ... ???
Define "dirt cheap" in terms of a VA disability pension, if you would.
Hey, I'm sweet and sensitive too! And loveable and cute and cuddly kinda like a rather large teddy bear. ;-)
Heck, all I have to do is look in a mirror. ;-P
comment deleted.
Talking to people on the internet is pointless, especially when they act like children.
@Kludge
You are completely right about a lot of things. You've got a good understanding of the big picture. It's unfortunate that others can't have your perspective!
Kludge,
I have to disagree with you here.
Comparing DAZ's models to Miki, GND, and the other Poser figures is like comparing Coca Cola to Jarritos Cola.
DAZ is the GOLD standard of characters. I know Poser users who never use Miki or any of those Poser figures. More stuff is released monthly for Vicky 4 than has ever been released for Miki.
DAZ makes the characters most people like to use.
Today I was working with a scene that had elements from Gen1 to Gen4 and they all played together nicely. Genesis changed all that. Recently, a freebie was released that could only be used in DS4. The freebie was a prop, so it just as well could have been made for Poser and Daz.
People aren't being freakishly childish. They are being incredibly logical. Vicky isn't just another figure. She is THE figure.
For the record, my main tool is Carrara7Pro, which can't use Genesis. C8.5 destroys people's runtime and since I do this professionally, I can't afford to have mine wiped out. So, no Genesis for me.
I also use DS2.3 (I have DS3A and DS4A). I do have Poser 7, but it is no longer installed.
I disagree with you here. You aren't being childish. You have level-headed in all the post I've read of yours. However some others do act childish and illogical.
I say if Vicky floats your boat enjoy, but don't begrudge those who use Genesis. I know you don't give others a hard time, but you have to acknowledge there are some in this forum who just wait for the opportunity to complain that item X is Ds4 or genesis. Why constantly complain about tools others are using?
I do understand that PC members especially like to see continued support in their preferred packages, but Daz hasn't done anything to prevent people from using older models in whatever software they have been using up until now. including THE model V4.
I would begrudge Daz if they stopped supporting Genesis in less than 2 years, Hopefully longer really. But V4 had 6 years of love, and still is getting attention. So some people are being childish and illogical. (had to say it twice)
EDIT: changed "others" to "some others" for clarity
...KageRyu, thank you.
This originally was a thread about why people were considering leaving Daz.
Yes Daz is heading in a different direction. Unfortunately for some of us the "fare" to stay on board the bus is seen as being a bit steep and the route it is heading in one we may no longer want to travel.
I don't think I have broken even this year with the cost of my Annual PC membership, especially since the changes in May. The galleries, (which were one source for many to acquire content) are gone. Vouchers which were good on all but 1.99$ items have been replaced with "all or nothing" coupons limited only to purchases of Daz Originals (most new releases of which are useless if one doesn't work with Genesis). This is just one part of why many of us (some long time members like sunfirexed above) feel a bit left out by the change in direction and are considering letting our PC memberships expire.
Personally I couldn't care less if Genesis was made to work in Studio1.7 (the first version I DL'd and still have backed up) Poser4 or even SketchUp. I have an extensive investment in Gen4 versions of Vicky, Michael, and Steph as well as David3, Aiko3, the original Sadie, Sam, Mavka and a few standalone characters like Little One and Telka. This represents a fairly sizable outlay (on very limited budget) over the last four and a half years since I became involved in this. I'm not in the position to start from "square one" all over again with Genesis.
Yeah the Gen 4 figures don't bend as well or cannot be mixed together with everything from a toon to a monster character, I am well aware of that. However I know their capabilities and try to work around their limitations the best I can. I have been turning more to Poser Pro2010 as it is more reliable than S3A and offers rendering options that work better with my system's limited memory and processing resources.
Studio4.5 Pro may be the best thing since sliced bread on rig that can handle it's optimal system requirements. On mine with an integrated graphics chipset and a maximum of 2GB of memory allocated to any single application that barely meets the minimum OGL requirement, it is a total dog and therefore not a viable "replacement" for 3.1.2.32.
Shoot, I still have 2.3.3 installed and have rolled back to it on several occasions when 3A failed me. I've learned a number of tricks from members on these forums to reduce the memory load as much as possible. However when one runs up against a bug in the software, there isn't much more that can be done. 3.1.2.32 still has bugs that were never attended to. On some systems they may have little to no impact, while on others (even with similar specs) they can be crippling. Just the nature of the "beast" I guess.
Granted, my initial disdain for Genesis stemmed from the fact it dominated new releases in the store. There were a number of nice items I would have considered buying if they were available for Gen4. I even passed on weekly freebies that were "Genesis" related as for my purposes, they were useless and only would have taken up valuable HD space.
Yes, admittedly I have seen some incredible things done with Genesis. However, I've also seen wonderful things done with Gen4 ,Gen3, and even the original Poser Woman (AKA "Posette"). Genesis and Studio4.5Pro may very well be the "future", just not one I feel fits in with my budget or needs.
...getting ready to pull the signal cord as my ticket expires "soon".
No argument with the last sentence. But their problem isn't with Vickie, it's with Genesis. Since Genesis doesn't yet work well with other software, they want to quit. That is being freakishly childish.
This is cool. Since C8.5 is still in Beta, the problems you're having will probably be addressed at some point. You did put in a bug report, right? The most recent version I have is C6.1P which isn't loaded. I've heard that version had issues so it may sit idle for quite a while.
My lineup is DS2.3, DS3A and DS4.5P (4.5.0.114) with the new Beta downloaded and ready to load. I also have Poser 7 and plan to get PP2010 someday. Not yet loaded are C6.1P, B7P and Hex 2.5 (or whatever the latest version is.) DS3A and the Gen4 characters seem to be about the best overall match.
8.5 does nothing to your runtimes, doesn't effect them at all. The first release of C8.5 screwed up your runtime list in the browser in carrara 8.1, but didn't effect your runtimes. That has since been fixed.
If you want to use genesis in carrara but not have studio; a mistake at this point, just install studio with content, run once, uninstall studio; I'd also recommend uninstalling CMS but that is just me. Don't need it, don't want it, don't trust it in that order.
I say a mistake because carrara still can't use genesis the way studio does so it is best to set up you character in studio then save out as a duf to carrara. I'm still having issues with the eyes though. Not filing a bug report because there is no reason for ME to file a report.
Here is a great example of my experience with DAZ. Six weeks ago it was posted that the next build of C8.5 beta would be out in a few days, still waiting. And this is just SOP for DAZ.
I'm in a mood so could go on a rip about how DAZ has ruined this for me as a hobby; there is no fun in frustration. But the forum; over the coarse of a year or so, has pretty well turned in to a DAZ appreciation society. But that is to be expected, by now the majority of the people still here are Dazzers; big DAZ fans, because everyone else has left.
Me? I'm still hoping DAZ will eventually get it right. I may be a pessimist but I still HOPE for the best.
I don't see it that way. These forums have people with a variety of views on things, and many are not appreciative at all. Honestly I think there are fewer people in the appreciation club than not.
As another small spender, I didn't put much moola into Genesis.
Just GenX, the Gen3 addon, and some shapes. I prefer to have native Genesis content, but it's optional. (I bought a little)
Just saying, for people who can, and want to, it's easy to be thrifty when adding Genesis, especially with a ton of old content.
Old figures (including unique toon figures***) still work, so all I've done is gain a figure.
I'm still going to hang around, hope to still see you.
***Unless there's Geometery switching, I only own some of them. DS4 still gets bugs, with that, in some versions.
You can disagree all you want, but it does not change the fact that a version change is not an update for bugs in a current version. This is emphasized even more when the version change does not address those bugs specificly, but further introduces a slew of new bugs, as well as breaking features that previously worked (many of which are still broken in 4.5) and breaking compatibility with plugins, many of which have not, and never will be updated for the new version for a variety of reasons. The thing is, the fixes were not made with the upgrade to 4.0, and it is not the solution especially for those who cannot use it - which is why so many were upset and continue to be upset that promised patches were never made.
Whether it is a "point" or "numerical" increment is not imaterial when the "numerical" increment completely alters the codebase, is even more unstable, not executable on the same machines that ran the previous version, etc... and as I already said all of this was already brought up before and met with the same types of responses from overly enthusiastic proponents of DS4.
The majority of people I see with chips on their shoulder or trying to create a stink are those who label any critique as Daz bashing, or respond with DS4 being the fix when it is not.
I originally thought Genesis was a neet idea and was going to wait to see what happened with it and other program compatibility - however - after all the bitterness and all the bullying usually begun by self appointed Daz supporters jumping on every thread with any critique as anti-daz and anti-genesis and berating and belittling all coments and factual statements have left such a bad taste in my mouth I want nothing to do with it. At this point, I could care less about the supposed "big surprise for Poser fans of Genesis" I will never support it or use it. I don't need to either, as I have so much in my runtimes and yet uninstalled I can keep busy from now until the apocalypse (it's what...two months away?).
I merely pointed out that Others had reported instability in DS3 as a ditrect response to a statement made telling you it was just you and your computer and demanding to know why other users weren't experiencing it, and already numerous posts have jumped on me for "bringing up old battlescars" and "having a chip on my shoulder". Funny thing is, they are proving my point decisively. If it's any concelation Kyoto, I have worked with many 3D apps, many far more intense and demanding than DS, and I tried to add DS3A to my menagerie. I run a mixed lot of machines, both 32 and 64 bit, and I have experienced all of the problems you described across the 32 bit machines (not nescessarily all on the same machine) - but have definately found the more complex a scene, the higher the odds DS3A will crash from that memory leak. I have even tracked DS3A's memory and resource usage directly. I can not make scenes half as complex as what it takes to bring Poser Pro and Poser 2010 to it's knees on those same machines - which led me to stop trying to learn DS at all, as it just is not worth the time investment. Add to that several of the plugins did not perform as advertised, and that put the nail in it for me. Would have tried DS 4, but it won't even install on many of my 32 bit machines (machines that have no trouble running multiple instances of Lightwave 11, and run Vue 10 and Zbrush mind you), and it has no network render capability, no hosting plugins for integration with most of my other apps - so again, not worth the trouble. As it is it cannot be a feasible part of my production environment because it is not compatible or stable enough and lacks core nescessary features - I tried pointing this out several times in the old forums and even requesting these features, and every time was immediately attacked for "daz-bashing" and had threads locked and deleted. So, yeah, I understand where you are coming from.
I do wish you luck with your computers, I know we have talked a few times about supporting older, legacy machines.
Do you mean quitting the hobby or quitting DAZ?
I disagree with you here. You aren't being childish. You have level-headed in all the post I've read of yours. However some others do act childish and illogical.
I say if Vicky floats your boat enjoy, but don't begrudge those who use Genesis. I know you don't give others a hard time, but you have to acknowledge there are some in this forum who just wait for the opportunity to complain that item X is Ds4 or genesis. Why constantly complain about tools others are using?
I do understand that PC members especially like to see continued support in their preferred packages, but Daz hasn't done anything to prevent people from using older models in whatever software they have been using up until now. including THE model V4.
I would begrudge Daz if they stopped supporting Genesis in less than 2 years, Hopefully longer really. But V4 had 6 years of love, and still is getting attention. So some people are being childish and illogical. (had to say it twice)
EDIT: changed "others" to "some others" for clarity
I agree with this, and many things you have pointed out I have been thinking exactly the same thing.
Personally I love genesis, but there is no way I will criticize any products for not supporting genesis. Likewise I will never criticize any ones work by the fact that they're using a non-genesis character. Six years of love for V4 and generation 4 as pointed out, that is phenomenal! and these figures have a true legacy and is not ignored.
But just because a new generation of figures have came along doesn't mean that the artists who use them and the newer products should constantly be bombarded with negative criticism because it's not gen 4 or below. It really does get to me, because I too am also a lover of gen 4, but I upgraded and did so willingly and I definitely will not say I regret it at all. There is nothing worse than posting a render/creation that you've put so much work into and then seeing your feedback being broken up with a big spill on the cons of genesis, and how gen 4 is so much better.
My view is that we are all artists who use different tools. And we shouldn't be scrutinized by the tools we so choose to use.
And almost all the negativity towards gen 5 tends to fall on the basis that gen 5 is not supported in Poser or below Daz 4. While I totally agree it would be absolutely fantastic to see Poser support Gen 5, I can certainly see why Genesis is not supported below Daz 4. As models utilize new features, the requirements on the software changes, and no software company continues to upgrade older software that has been replaced with newer versions of the same software, that would be ridiculously costly, inappropriate and impractical, despite the personal opinions of customers who haven't upgraded for whatever reason.
FYI - For a very long time I remained in daz 2 well into daz 4, and likewise stuck to gen 3 well into gen 4. I never criticized gen 4.
Please no one get offended by this, I certainly don't intend to offend. This is just my opinion, on what I have observed.
Do you mean quitting the hobby or quitting DAZ?
Quitting PC, quitting Daz, and CD2010 is quitting 3D for some reason.
Agreed. Same goes for Poser/DS. I had a single Poser render posted on my DA account when I was testing the software and people jumped on the fact it was a poser render and said "its the best render you've ever done" "Poser is so much better than...."
ANd I'm like, yuck, this render isn't that great. And why aren't we talking about how smexy she is? I don't want ta hear anything bout no firefly engine!
Let me just clarify something here. The PC Anniversary sale has not 'gone genesis'. There wasn't one item for genesis in the recent list for PC choice. Half the items relating to figures are Gen 4 in the current discounts. Almost all the hair items on sale at 70% off are NOT genesis.
Agreed. Same goes for Poser/DS. I had a single Poser render posted on my DA account when I was testing the software and people jumped on the fact it was a poser render and said "its the best render you've ever done" "Poser is so much better than...."
ANd I'm like, yuck, this render isn't that great. And why aren't we talking about how smexy she is? I don't want ta hear anything bout no firefly engine!
I know its so awful when you hear that. It's like, cant you just accept that we are all different, and like or dislike our work NOT based on a figure we used and NOT based on the software. 3ds Max/Maya community has the same issues. They despise anything made in daz or poser. They know we put heaps of work into it, but they base their criticism purely on the software/figures. They also ignore the fact that they too have a large market for models, textures and rigged figures themselves!
True. I did oversimplify that bit out, heh. (I've edited my post, above, to clarify).
They seem to have gone to some effort to de-emphasize Genesis in the sales, this month. (It would automatically have a good deal of pre-Genesis, but they went the extra mile). My hats off to Daz for that. (I'm not happy that they chopped out most of the deals they'd routinely had in October, but that's a different subject).
I sympathize with the non-Genesis PC members, because the new PC releases have been overwhelmingly Genesis, lately. The DO new releases have, unsurprisingly, had fewer and fewer Gen4, as well.
Myself, I'd rather not hassle with pre-Genesis, anymore, except to import shapes, autofit/convert, or when I'm in PP2012.
(And when I'm in PP2012, I go for the weightmapped stuff, as much as their drizzle of clothes & morphs allow. There's also V4 WM, with its clothing script, but M4 WM ain't here yet).
I sidegraded to 2012 when it seemed certain that Genesis would be 100% in there. If the plugin happens, I'll use it more.
But I'm more comfortable with Studio.
True. I did oversimplify that bit out, heh. (I've edited my post, above, to clarify).
They seem to have gone to some effort to de-emphasize Genesis in the sales, this month. (It would automatically have a good deal of pre-Genesis, but they went the extra mile). My hats off to Daz for that. (I'm not happy that they chopped out most of the deals they'd routinely had in October, but that's a different subject).
I sympathize with the non-Genesis PC members, because the new PC releases have been overwhelmingly Genesis, lately. The DO new releases have, unsurprisingly, had fewer and fewer Gen4, as well.
Myself, I'd rather not hassle with pre-Genesis, anymore, except to import shapes, autofit/convert, or when I'm in PP2012.
(And when I'm in PP2012, I go for the weightmapped stuff, as much as their drizzle of clothes & morphs allow. There's also V4 WM, with its clothing script, but I haven't noticed M4 WM being ready yet).
There are a few good tuts around for clothing transfers... That I agree can be a bit of a bummer, I'm just happy they improved the transfer utility. There are heaps of GREAT gen 4 stuff I'd love to transfer. And GenX is a god send!
I quite like the items that have both V4/M4 and Genesis supported. I still a huge user of the V4 and M4 textures! I don't think I've actually got into the V5/M5 UV set yet. For that reason, I often still buy Gen4 stuff! :cheese:
Ya know I was kinda sorta one of those guys. I used poser and bryce for a bit before I learned 3DS Max. After I learned max and got my degree I refused to even look at Poser! I had some legitimate reasons at the time but as years progressed my needs changed and my eyes opened as well. I saw tutorials on how many artist were using Daz models as a base for their digital paintings and such. After that I did some more research and decided that it made at on more sense to use Daz's models than reinvent the wheel. And that's where I am now.
Creating models and texturing is a great skill set, however it is all about the end result. A lot of modellers what people to admire how the polygons are laid out and how clean things are. Most people don't admire flat shaded renders! Nor should they have to.
But ya know dressing and posing barbie dolls and showing that off as your own work isn't art man. You're just a poser!
only Posers use poser!
To clarify things with you... I AM a 3ds Max user/modeler LOL I use it ALL THE TIME. Props, Architecture now clothing, the works. I too studied Diploma in 3ds max, I only wish it had included Maya as well. My point is you cant judge a render based on the fact that you also used something bought/pre-made. 3DS max and Maya have the exact same concept of market. I've been among them.
I often NEVER use products that I haven't modified in some way. Right down to the mesh and textures. Regardless of that fact, that very comment discredits the amount of work people do for their renders. I would also point out that in the professional 3D world, the work on projects is very much broken up into departments. "the Barbie doll posers and animators" are a professional department all the same with character modeling, modeling, rigging, environments, lighting etc.
Also, I do agree with you with 'part' of that statement. just posing a character isn't so much your own art........ But, when you set the cameras, lighting, assemble and position other objects any additional content for the figure, dial up a unique character, animate it (If an animation) That's already a large bulk of the industry departments regardless of how well the final result is. It's still their art and shouldn't be discredited.
Yeah, we who know how to model have more satisfaction knowing that we created most if not all of everything in that render or animation, but to use that knowledge in saying another's work is not their art and that they're just a dolly poser, is like telling anyone who sketches with a reference image that they are not an artist because they didn't sketch the artwork using a live model or create it with no reference at all.
Just my opinion on that subject :)
Quitting PC, quitting Daz, and CD2010 is quitting 3D for some reason.
Perfectly reasonable for anyone to quit the PC if it's no longer worth the membership fees to them, and perfectly reasonable to me to quit Daz if you can no longer find anything to buy. Quitting 3D because of Genesis.....well, I'm sure that's reasonable to some. While I have my disappointment with the whole thing, it's not that dire for me to quit my hobby, but to each their own.
Perfectly reasonable for anyone to quit the PC if it's no longer worth the membership fees to them, and perfectly reasonable to me to quit Daz if you can no longer find anything to buy. Quitting 3D because of Genesis.....well, I'm sure that's reasonable to some. While I have my disappointment with the whole thing, it's not that dire for me to quit my hobby, but to each their own.
CD2010 was quitting for many reasons, the issues he mentioned last seemed to be about the changes to the forum and store
I see. Well, everyone has their own reasons for staying or leaving. As I said, to each their own :) Maybe he'll come back at some point.