Too many morphs or should I just give up on this?
spearcarrier
Posts: 686
Problem 2: It's looking like for THE FIFTH TIME!!! I have to restart a simple pair of PJ bottoms I've been making.
I do well until I get to the end, the final combo morphs, and suddenly things go wrong. Vertices go in odd directions. The object won't drape without going in odd directions. It doesn't matter how many times I restart DAZ, reset... I've even tried removing morphs... and it's always the same. I actually will have to reimport the mesh and start from complete scratch, which I am beyond sick of doing.
I've been going through all the numerous morphs, checking each one, to see if anything is wrong. I have no idea.
What do I do here? This is just too much over the top!!
Problem 1: Yes, it's all very nice this script from DAZ to create multidimensional morphs. Huzzah. I'm going to attach a picture of the mess it makes. Does anyone remember how to simply do it by hand or have access to a step for step tutorial on how to do it by hand? A linear step by step, minus the director's notes? I've picked apart the messes the script makes and have tried to fix, and sometimes I get lucky. Sometimes.
A simple Thigh to Side morph to a 45 degree angle has to be keyed to tell it when to stop. Which doesn't always work.
So sick of having to start all over again. Does anyone have any answer?
Daz 3D is part of 
Connect
DAZ Productions, Inc.
7533 S Center View Ct #4664
West Jordan, UT 84084
Licensing Agreement | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | EULA
© 2024 Daz Productions Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Comments
I'm no expert at this sort of thing, but it looks like a lot of it has to do with weight maps. I wonder if the script (I have no idea which script you're talking about) might mess with those?
Here are some amazing tips and instructions that may help you find your answers.
Some Very Helpful YouTube Videos
Thanks for taking the time to reply. That's a lot of videos. I'll pick through them as I go. In the meantime, I"m talking about the DAZ scrips Mada thoughtfully put out there with permission from DAZ. One of them is a script to create a multidimensional morph.
She's got a long list of tutorial, tips and trick videos that I've been going through. So far many are things I know, but being as I learned through the back door there's a lot I don't. The first video in her list has a link to the dropbox that holds the scripts. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2SdKrOTXeXA1qMgNE84AsM8_Wq63gOBF
It seemed like it was working, and sure it kind of does for later things. But the earlier morphs end up completely messed up. And her technique of ERC freezing on a joint doesn't always work either. I've been manually going into the parameters tab and putting things together myself so they'll behave as I wish. Some are simple morphs. But for some I've had to learn keying, somewhat. I think I only have a fraction of an inkling on how that works.
What I need is to be able to create complicated morphs for when, say, a right thigh bone has two rotation or (currently) two different thigh bones have to do two different things. Or (inthe future) two thighbones and a shin bone.
Where would you suggest I begin on your list? Can't hurt to look at other things in the meantime.
Hmm... have you tweaked the weight or already fixed the pJCMs? Why there's a poke-thru on left thigh when right thigh bends...?
I don't get you for Problem 1... what script? why do you need to create a 'multi-dimensional' morph... what's that?
Start at the bottom of the page and check out the titles of the videos. They'll lead you to where you want to be. Some of them are all about this stuff.
I agree with Crosswind. No idea why the need for the multidimensional morph script. But then... I don't even know what that is... Expand All, maybe?
One thing about making clothes: I've heard that tight-fitted clothes give the biggest nightmares for making them work across many figure shapes.
Also - when working with making clothes, always use the base shape. That's what the software (Daz Studio) expects.
Save results as a product BEFORE applying any shaping morphs to the figure wearing them.
Load in the 'product' from the library and test shapes.
Try to work everything out without mesh smoothing turned on. If it's needed in the end... fine. But try working things out without it turned on so you can tell that you're not making the mesh impossible to smooth out (too shrunk, for example)
Ah ha, I suddenly recalled that just now. I've watched Mada's tutorials, that's it but I always call it 'pJCMs for combo rotations'
Sickleyield also made a tutorial years ago... we always manually set Keyed values in Property Hierarchy. I answered a same questions days ago, will check...
Sweet! (Crosswind ROCKS!!!)
I was going through her tuts because I thought the process was linear with them. LOL!
PCJMs were the first thing to "go". I've got all of the simple rotations set. It's at this stage, the complex stage, that things go haywire.
The poke through is from the morph the script was supposed to set that worked when all bones were there for testing... but also took over one of the first morphs created I discovered. I have a set of poses I've made, and ever so often I'll step back and run through them to make sure things aren't broken.
Crosswind, if you can come through that would be AMAZING. I have managed to get the morph for when both thighs are set to their respective 90's by putting both jcms in multiply of the controls. But that doesn't always work. Same goes for the tactic of having one morph in add (step 1) and the other in multiply (step 2).
Okey dokey. Well, I haven't used any script other than manual setup, but such a case is simple. I use G8F's thighs Side-Side with 85 degrees as an example. It's 90 degrees on G9 but the approach and calculaton method are all the similar.
- You create a separate corrective morph for the pants ( 'pJCMLRThighs85' on G8F or 'body_cbs_LRthigh_z90p' on G9 ) for this combo rotations (Side-Side with both Left and Right Thighs)
- In Property Hierarchy, drag Side-Side dials of L/R thighs to 1st Stage Controller of the corrective morph
- Set the Keyed value to the controllers as below
Pls be noted that in quite a lot similar cases we don't set up corrective morph(s) for such combo rotations, as long as we can well fix separate pjcm / cbs on each thigh. But that may depend on the garment itself sometimes, so just case by case. If you really find ugly distortion(s) with combo rotations, pls feel free to fix them. If not, you really don't have to do so...
Alas, I thought maybe fiftieth time was the charm. But the morph won't calculate. (Just did it again.)
Or when I get it doing so, it takes over another morph that requires that controller. (I'm bending both legs forward.) OMG I just want the character to be able to sit down.
I might have it. I hope. But I had to go backwards for it.
Too soon to be sure this is The Way (tm). I've another morph that works and has been working correctly. I've no idea how it landed with those settings but I copied them to see what would happen.
Hang on... you manually ERC Freeze a corrective morph, why ? You should'nt have done that.... I'll use a G9 thighs bend forward when I'm back.
And I don't think it is right to use 2nd stage for this case...
Because Mada has said to in her video series early on. "Creating ERC Morphs". Maybe that's not for corrective morphs, but she is working on a pair of pants in the video. She also had said - I think in a thread that directed me to the videos - that her videos were for Genesis 8 but that Genesis 9 used the "exact same" protocols.
I was originally not doing it, but the complex morph problem had lead me to trying to find... anything... which lead me to her videos.
If I undrstand correctly I think you are OK - you set up the correctives for each separtate bend, then you make a morph to remove the doubled effect when both are applied and you need it linked to one of the correctives at first stage and oen at second - that way if both are at 100% so will the corrective be (100% * 100% = 100%) and if one or both are only partially applied yiu get the required partial correction (100% * 50% = 50%, for example).
Before I fix my pants on G9, I review that episode from her first 'cause I must've forgotten some details.
TBH, with my gut feeling, not exactly... It's not like the case of placing a head or body morph on 2nd stage by using 'Multiply' to influence the % or the sub-component(s), or visa versa.
For both thighs XRotates, the 3rd corrective morph should have the controllers with the same 'factor of influence' on the 1st stage rather than using Add + Multiply from each thigh. I'll have a test as I've never done so before. My head is getting a bit messy now... haha
Might not all be exactly how the PAs do things, but this was working for me:
https://www.deviantart.com/catherine3678ab/art/Making-pJCMs-for-Clothing-872454630
In it I make a third morph as a controller morph for the 2 thigh morphs if doing the splits ;-)
I was using the two corrective morphs as the drivers, that way all the scaling and limiting is already handled.
@Catherine, yea I've ever read that. But if I remember correctly, the 3rd morph you created was not a controller morph other than a corrective morph still... then 2 pjcms are its controller, n'est-ce pas?
And you might've used Scalar, I guess ~~
Good catch, that sounds more like it. It had its own morph which was dialed if required by the 2 pjcms.
Okey dokey ~ we used the same method but just the controllers and ERC type were different, so far so good.
You know, a number of tutorials, both those in the store as well as the free ones in the wilds, were put together piece meal basically while we were all learning how to any of this. It was all new ground. Since then, like with every new edition of D/S, changes were made - be they in the tools, what the tools were called, or even in the best choice for workflows. End result is that there may be several methods to achieve the same goals - making something that works well enough for the project in hand. The world of 3D modeling has really developed a great distance from where it first started. Quite amazing really, what can be achieved from a sphere, cube, cone or plane ;-)
With regards to the number of morphs required for any clothing piece - it really does vary per garment. I've seen some clothing with it seems "pages" of morphs for one item. All behind the scenes type morphs, not counting the user facing morphs.
That's the way I had originally understood it, but for some reason that method stopped working. Maybe it's my software: I have been having a lot of problems, so I'm ready to blame my configuration before I'm willing to blame DAZ.
What I'm doing NOW is putting every controlling morph under the multimorph and ERC'ing every time. That seems to be holding.
So far.
I"m completely checking this out, but for the record I've ended up making CTRL morphs for the thigh jcms. If I ever am making another complex piece like this again (it's complex because I want folds to move around), I'll have to try to remember NOT to replace the base morphs. It's a great tactic for simple things, but I never said I knew how to be simple about anything. ;-)
Let's open up this link and see what wisdon it affords.
Okay, I'm finished with testing the multi-dimensional script as what OP wanted and did. Here's the wrap-up: (as per the case of G9's both thighs bend forward 90 degrees, aka - XRotates of L / R thighs, plus 'the 3rd cbs' )
MultiDimensional Way:
1. It works with no problem though the workflow is different from Catherine's and mine. I attached 2 diagrams for your reference. In general, the script creates two CTRL morphs on the pants (same name but on each thigh), their controllers are figure's L / R thigh Bend, their sub-components are 'the 3rd cbs'. CTRL on right thigh goes to 1st stage, the one on left thigh goes to 2nd stage. So it's a 'two layers' control. Such a mechanism could be also found on G9 itselft, for a combo rotations - thighs Bend and Side-Side (X / Z Rotates).
2. Fit to Mode of the pants has to be switched to 'Auto Follow Transforms', then you'll see the hidden 'Bend' dial on the pants, only in this way, you're able to use the script to automatically create CTRL dials. (I haven't used such a way before)
3. As for ERC Freezing, only after you manually enter a value to cbs morph, there'll be a Raw value, then you can see 'cbs' in ERC Freeze dialogue.
4. ERC Types : ERC [Add]+[Multiply]
Our Simple Way:
1. One layer control: no CTRL dials, the Controllers are figure's L / R Thigh Bend or two 'cbs'
2. No need to manually ERC Freeze, all ERC links are set within Property Hierarchy
3. ERC Type : ERC [Keyed]
Conclusion for the time being -:
1. IMHO, I'm not 100% sure if creating CTRL dials on the pants and manual ERC Freeze are really needed, but as per the testing results, seemingly they're not. I live in Asia and have quite a few PA friends in here. I've checked with some of them, they don't use these methods either.
2. For two stages controlling, technically there's no problem at all. But with ERC[Keyed] on 1st Stage only, we can make various subtle changes on the corrective result(s), though that may not be really necessary. Anyway, will go for more experiments.
3. As Catherine mentioned, there're various methods anyway... All roads lead to Rome. However, I really want to know the reason and if there's any difference in terms of results by using these different methods.
PS: I specifically tested the difference of partial corrective result from ERC [Add]+[Multiply] and ERC [Keyed], as attached. Pls be noted that I found there was no problem around the crotch of my pants when both thighs bend, so I made a symmetrical corrective morph on the back. Well it still depends on the garment design, its geometry and the fixed area..SS are just for your ref.
Taking notes ;-)
{and making sure that the forum glitch doesn't devour the pics}
I was working like that but it made a lot of problems, so the idea of a control base has become a definite part of my workflow as of today - especially when I realized the basic controllers (Left Thigh Bend -45) were controlling more complex things. But I was getting confused on what is what, so I've begun naming my "base dials" (Simple Thigh Bend-45) CTRL:LThighBend-45.
I am still having to ERC freeze at least those basic morphs. Otherwise they lose what they're supposed to do and will reset themselves to 0 at some point, and I have to go back through the 50+ poses I've built so far to make sure I've put things in order. Once I started ERC freezing that problem (mostly) went away. Just dragging and dropping didn't always hold.
So here is what I've realized is really kicking butt on the more complex morphs to the point I'm actually writing notes in parenthesis in my morph pose library so they'll be in my face. LOL
Step 1: Basic morphs: your joints, basic single bends and rotations. I think I'm going to have a policy of creating ctrls as well, say for thigh bend -30 which I just now had to create because when I got to the crazy complex end it turned out I needed it. ERC each of these simple morphs and Key them linearly - or constant when linearly is being a jerk. I key them because I want, for example, the -45 bend rotation to fade out by -70. May be complex, but it gives me a lot more freedom for morph movement and tends to help keep vertices smooth.
Step 2: "2nd" level morphs: the ones that are only one limb bone moving around usually between two limbs. Currently this is just the thighs. The way I created the morphs, moving the shin bone doesn't effect the rest as much. (But someday it might.) With these I've figured out that because the controlling morphs are built as they are, with the more complex morphs all I have to do (normally) is either drop the complex morph into the sub-component stage 2 level of each associated control morph or 2. Drop each control morph into the controllers 2nd stage level of the complex morph.
Edit: Still need the rotations in the controllers 1st stage level, though. So far it looks like if I use the base morph rotations the CTRLs are usually built on (body_cbs_thigh_x35p_r example) I don't have to Key them. But sometimes I have to ERC. Either way Keying is happening when thing are being a jerk.
Step 3: (Where I'm at now) It's because of this stage I've realized how nice those controlling morphs are. I've currently got a left thigh bent at -30 and rotated at -30. I consider this a "3rd" level morph because the vertices get moved around a lot more with this sort of movement. But I've got my controllers. I put them where they needed to go and things smoothed right out without me going crazy.
Since figuring this out, creating these has been going 3x as fast.
I did see that after getting all these rotations in weight mapping was next. Thank goodness I'm saving all those poses. And I haven't went back to see if everything moves and behaves as much as they're telling me they do yet.
Oh dear... TBH, you're making the workflow too much complicated. First, I'm sorry to tell you even Mada does not use this workflow on G9 other than a simple and neat one.. if you pls take a look at the G9 clothing products she made.
ERC's mechanics are always the same even Daz updated quite a few DS versions. The trick is that if you disassemble quite a few good garments from quite a few productive veteran PAs, manipulate and check them plus going thru DSON files, etc. , you will almost get the optimal ways...
I'll be back later... Coffee time. See ya !
Yeah it's complicated but so far it's what's working. Everything else hasn't.
No offense but you really don't have to go for that way at all. TBH, your workflow is a long detour. Why not go for the optimal way? If you found other methods did not work, most likely you did a wrong setup.
With the simple and optimal way, even though you aim to make product level garments.... with no CTRL dial, no manual Freeze , plus ERC [Keyed] and various Key Types and Key Range, you can even make 'complex correctives' much better with saving lots of time and effort.
Just give you one example - still relating to Manual ERC Freeze...
If freezing l_thigh Bend dial on the Pants, let's say just for the corrective morph 'body_cbs_thigh_x90n_l', DS will add a formula to body_cbs_thigh_x90n_l.dsf, which will Push Value from the Pant's l_thigh Bend (Controller) to the corrective morph. However, the l_thigh bone on the Pants just Auto-Follows G9's l_thigh bone. Who will manually dial the thigh Bend on the Pants ? So this Freeze and Controller is completely redundant, as well as the 'mid-layer' CTRLs on the pants. BTW, have you exprerienced any DS crash when ERC Freezing with some 'combo cbs'...?
There's always best practice, but as Catherine said, people always have the methods of their own, as long as they can get the jobs done... Anyway, happy creating and happy rendering !
Maybe I did a wrong set up. I don't know. It's likely. I only posted here because I'd reached the end of patience about it. A week, maybe a couple of days more, of me looking for answers with of course the only real thing I could find being a script that did all the thinking for me - and that's not exactly an answer to a question. Just a crutch. And it didn't quite work either.
Of following tutorials step by step. Of doing just as you describe. And each time, I'd get to the complicated stage only to find that the more advanced morphs were overriding (and making messes of) the first morphs. I have rebuilt those pants a lot of times. I didn't exaggerate. So why skip ERC freeze when it clearly avoids 5x the work?
Another point I have here is that I don't see my way as complicated at all. I see it as simplifying what could be messy later. Using ERC that releases me from doing a lot of work when I get to the more complicated bends, twists and turns. I just powered my way through every bend combination I could think of simply by dragging and dropping because I already had the controllers ERC frozen and ready to go. Back and forth pose testing has yielded no messes so far. I can't say it's going to hold to other tests, but it's better than it was.
Third amused point. I sometimes manually pose my clothing. I'm a comic book artist. Sometimes there are things I just want a piece of clothing to do. I've seen other artists post in places how frustrated they are trying to pose things so those pants could drop to the floor properly. Posing your clothing is not a thing of the past.
Yeah, people have methods of their own. I'm very glad you guys participated in this thread, because without the brainstorm I think I'd be rebuilding those pants for a 7th time right now. D'you know I've been pulling allnighters on them. LOL