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I've only been doing this for about a year and a half, and had this debate with myself constantly for the first six months. I have a lot of friends who are painters, or do other kinds of visual art. I used to draw a lot, but never really got past the cartoony stage. Now, I buy pretty much everything I use. I very occasionally use custom textures, pull clouds from skies I've photgraphed myself. For the most part, I just bring stuff in and fiddle. So, I thought, it's not really art.
Since I started, I've done hundreds of renders. Out of those, there are only a handful that I'm truly happy with. Those are a combination of composition, lighting and postwork, all of which took several days to complete -- weeks, in a couple of cases. The rest are more like doodling, or concept sketching.
The pieces that I'm really proud of took as much time, as much knowledge of technique, and as much practice as anyone who paints, or draws, using more conventional methods. If you just buy a model, pull it into a scene, and render it, that's not art. But the minute you start shaping the scene to match what you're imagining, it's art. My guess is that the naysayers see it as some kind of shortcut, or dodge. I would also guess that most of the people who scorn it have never tried it. It's just as challenging as any other form of art I've tried, including sculpture.
The most important thing, though, is that I love the process. I did drawings for a long time, but got tired of it. I've tried painting and working in clay. I didn't enjoy doing it. With CG art, I'm having fun. I learn new stuff all the time because I keep having fun. I get burned out sometimes, and have to take a break from it, but I come back. And when I come back, I have fun.
For those folks who dismiss it as cheating, I offer this challenge: Download Daz and, using only the freely available models, create a scene that looks as good as your painted or sculpted work. Bet it's not as easy as you think it is.
Oil, brush and canvas make not an artist. Stone, chisel and hammer make not an artist. Violin, bow and rosin make not an artist. Computer, mouse and content make not an artist but the ability to take the tools available and form something that takes one's mind to another place or excite's emotion is an artist.
I agree with @KindredArts. The difference between DS artists and zbrush artists is the same as the difference between a sculptor and a director or photographer. They are two completely different types of art. But they are both a form of art. A sculptor who tells a director he isn't an artist because he can't sculpt is simply showing a form of total ignorance about what art is.
As for being a good artist that's a whole story apart. It doesn't matter what your field of expertise is, it always takes years to get the skills good enough. And it never ends. And the skills are just the basis. Then come ideas that are what can set you apart from others and where the true art is, in my humble opinion.
@areg5 That is horrible. That poor girl looks like a disarticulated broken doll. Her expression doesn't convey any emotion. Lighting is flat too. You have so much to learn but this means a lot of fun learning it .. Search around for "body language" "acting and emotions" "scene composition" "movie lighting".
@Zilvergrafix And when art pays the bills it's always a good thing too.
p.s. I'm not an artist myself, just a child playing with toys ..
The way I see it is this. If you only use the assets and don't make any of your own, don't model anything, texture or even pose things yourself, and you don't claim any of these things were made by you, you can still make art. Why? There are photographers and cinematographers that put together still or moving images where they created none of the things used and skillfully tell a story or evoke an emotion. If you are capable of doing this, then you've made art. If no one enjoys it but you, it is is still your expression.
Don't let others judge you. That's easier said than done, but it's true and should be your goal. Be prepared, however, that when you show it to others, be it friends, family or strangers, you are inviting their opinion. There is truth to the saying "Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one." If I have respect for the person telling me what they think, and it's constructive, I take it in, think about it, change if it serves me, discard it if it doesn't. Unless you are making something for purchase, you need answer to no one.
If what you do gives you joy, that's all that matters.
Oh I have heard this many times, was told that what we do is not art with all the premade stuff we are using.
Ignorant people is all I can say.
I have not yet found the * instant art * button in Daz Studio or Poser.
I can not model my own clothe , hair or props , but I buy and enjoy those that others make for us,
Art is Art, if you run a pencil over a piece of paper or slide a dial in a program.
We use our imagination just the same as an Artist who paints with oil, water colour or pencils.
We start with a blank canvas and we fill it with our imagination.
Just plopping a 3D Character is not what we do, we move and pose and build a scene around him/her that he/she can interact with, we add and remove hair and clothes until it is just right.
And then the fun begins in Photoshop were we fine tune what we created by lighten or darken the scene, by painging more hair in to make it look more natural or just add a frame.
Whatever we do, it is our imagination we brought to life , and that is ART.
Just ignore him, tell him you agree to disagree and carry on what you enjoy doing, that is all that matters.
I make nothing myself but let my imagination guide me.
Been told the same thing: it is not art, you just using stuff that was made.
I just smile and say: YES and I LOVE it.
The tools you use are irrelevant. What matters is WHAT you produce.
And understandably, if WHAT you produce is only designed to please yourself (as is the case with most of us hobbyists I presume), then it makes sense for others to question its worth.
From what very little I know about art, the one thing I do know is it has to affect others in some way (tell a story, make them feel an emotion, etc.). And if it doesn't, then of course you and I and others might dismiss it. No matter how proud we are and all the work we put into it. At the end of the day, if it doesn't affect others, what do you expect?
Personally, I produce stuff solely for myself. I'm selfish that way. I don't care if it tells others a story or whatever. It's only for my own enjoyment. And that might mean that 99.9% of the world thinks it's dumb, because I didn't make an effort (nor do I know how) to make it speak to anyone else.
Let's be honest, most of what we produce is out-of-the-box stuff that we don't really tweak very much. I mean, do the facial morphs REALLY transmit an emotion, or look like someone's REAL expression? In the light of day, most of the stuff I produce looks stiff and unreal and doesn't tell a story that others can relate to.
Am I an artist? Heck no. Not even close. I'm doing a hobby, not art. Just because I'm making images doesn't mean it fits anyone's definition of real art.
I think the clearest example is the fact that the real pros who make movies and animations in the real world generally make some super complicated custom figures with all kinds of expression controls and simulations and so on that we can't even come close to (nor do I care to). And that's so they can get those real, deep, emotional connections to their audience and tell really good stories and such.
But I'm more concerned with how cool the technology is, and how I can make a realistic looking image fairly simply with minimal effort. Heck, I can use awsome PBR shaders and Iray rendering to make a realistic image of a cool car.
But at the end of the day, it's just a foto of a car.
Kind-of funny but I say the same thing about half (actually more than half, most) of the things in the Tate Modern. I don't consider them "artists". They're more like "creative arrangers". I think lighting is an "art", so is sculpting (3d modellers are the modern equivalent). Anyway your debate with that person was just a debate about the meaning of words. Some people think the word "art" means drawing. For others it's a broader "creativity".
Damn right I'm not a real artist. I had an art teacher about 20 years ago..... at my local community college who said that if it was not drawn or painted from "life" then it is just an illustration.
I will happily refer to myself as an illustrator. Most people who claim to be artists and preach to other people what does and doesn't count as art are full of themselves.
Art is what you make of it. There is no rule book or instruction manual on what qualifies as art. If you are being creative and enjoying doing it, then you are making art. Art is about you and how you feel about it.
the trick is to never give anything away, to never reveal the genesis of your work
giving genesis away kills the butterfly
It does nto matter if you made all yourself or part, you are making art and you do not need to tell us that the only premade thing you are using is V4 , because it feels you are ashamed of that fact and that, that implies that you think the same as your friend.
You would not meniton the fact that the only thing
My Daughter starts University in September.
She will study fine Art and she is a fine Artist.
She paints with oils, acrylic, water colours, pencil and makes small clay sculptures and she tells people that her mum * me * is a 3D Artist.:)
That is good enough for me.
If my Daugher is proud of my 3D Art than that is what matters, if I am proud and most of all, happy, with my 3D Images, that is what matters..
The moment I find an instant Art button in any 3D program I shall find a new hobby.
There used to be a "make Art Button" in the Daz store, but it is no longer available. Totte did try to start a campaign to get it back in the store
ReRelease the Make Art Button
Using ZBrush isn't art, but NURBS on the other hand...
I have had many an argument with folks on other forums about not being a "real" artist because I didn't "make" everything. I told them I don't want to be a modeler. I just want to animate. Why is a 3d artist only an artist if he/she makes their own objects to arrange and move? Is a chef only a chef if he grows his own food? Are painters only artists if they make their own paint and canvass? It's ridiculous!
Well when it comes down too it if you are making professional work for sale how much of it you personally made is irrelevant. Sometimes it's only important who the buyer perceives makes the art. eg, Andy Warhol hardly made any art and that that he did was via using modern technology to copy and collage and superimpose other's works - very DAZ Studio like fundamentally - and often he didn't even do that but a student or associate did and the only thing that mattered was that it was called a Warhol piece so they could get a big price.
And sometimes it is only important that it be technically competent & beautiful like when you shop at a department store for a cheap framed landscape print and for that Bryce, hand painting, photos with filters applied, and many other techniques plausibly could be used and the artist receive no credit at all.
having a knowledge of modeling ,rigging ,topology etc would be a huge bonus for an animator, you'll get a much deeper understanding of how to animate a mesh when you know 'why' it's modelled as it is,for example if something isn't bending the way you'd like then understanding mesh flow will allow you to quickly adjust whatever it is your animating.
I've come to Daz as someone that only ever did Photography (because I can't draw for s**t) as an art form, I'm a Licentiate of the Royal Photographic Society.
I look at working with Daz and assets like I would a photographer, stylist and set dresser, especially with Iray, the lighting and optical fundamentals are for the most part the same. Daz for sure needs a higer level of technical understanding to get good results though.
If someone tells you it's not art ask them if they consider Photographers artists and then fire the comparison back at them.
I'm more of a "life's too short to waste my time worrying what others think about me...just move on and do your best" type of person.
If Salvador dali can take a lobster and throw it on a telephone and call it art, then everything is art, the amount of weird art out there is overwhelming, so why stuff made in Daz or Poser shouldn't be, I really don't see any logic reason for.
Wonder how a computer animator would feel if they were referred to as not being real animators if they used MOCAP, I can however understand from a technical point of view, that its less impressive than having made everything yourself from scratch, but art is not really technical, its about expression, feelings and emotions etc. and bet thats why Salvador dali got away with that Lobster telephone :D
It seems to me that -- if we're talking about visual art -- the "image" (whether painted, photographed, or rendered, etc.) either "inspires" some thought or emotion in the viewer that they deem distinctive to some extent, or it doesn't. Which tools, materials, and techniques are used to "get there" doesn't seem to be relevant to whether the end result is "art".
I would ask the "critic" referred to the in Original Post whether (s)he makes his or her own pigments, brushes, canvas, and frames "from scratch". If not, perhaps their work -- by their definition -- also is not "art". In a similar vein, is only the musician who sings or plays only songs which they personally composed an "artist"?
If the question, however, is not about the resulting "art" but the level of talents and skills of the "artist" ... There is, at some point, a question of how much of the process was done by that artist. If I take a perfectly composed and exposed photograph of the Mona Lisa and the resulting image is inspiring, I can hardly claim to be "an artist" -- a skilled "craftsmen" with a camera, perhaps, but hardly an "artist".
Likewise, a CG "artist" that simply loads a default Genesis character into a default-loaded Scene, hangs a default Distant Light, and then clicks Render is NOT an "artist" (nor a craftsman) -- and in most cases, the resulting image will readily prove that. But someone who takes those "generic" components and crafts them with sculptural lighting, elegant posing, and deft composition before clicking Render, is most definitely engaged directly in creating "art" -- which, I suppose by definition, makes them an "artist".
It isn't the tools we use but the art we create that makes one a skilled artist. I have never heard of a real artist. An artist is simply a person skilled at a particular task or occupation. It could be a modeler, texturer, animator, filmmaking, a novelist, a fashion designer, musician, painter. or a sketch artist. The last time I sketched well, I was a child, locked out of the house. I drew a door around the doorbell of our newly painted house. Then I added some windows, a house around them, a chimney, some smoke, a sun, a walkway below the door and a few shrubs. It earned me the s--t kicking of my life and I stopped drawing and took up poetry. As an adult I made some decent money creating 2D art from professional photographs that I shot while I was a sanctioned photographer. I have been using photoshop since 1999. My commissioned work has been on TV, wrapped around vehicles, on banners and hung on walls. If those shots I utilized had been a purchased from Ghetty Images that would not have made any difference to me being respected or hired and paid, as an artist. Being hired and paid did not make me an artist but it did change me as an artist. It helped me afford better tools and I wasn't hungry anymore. I am new to 3D but had I utilized Daz or any other 3D product being it from a service industry or an artist, it would not have made me a different type of artist. 3D art is a tool no different than a shovel or a rake, a computer or a camera. Elton John had Bernie Taupin write his lyrics. Vera Wang bought third party fabrics, hired seamstresses and relied on her team of artists for many things including the seamstress work. We each have our own niche and should be repected for our endeavours. Ron Mendell, known for his artwork on blockbuster movies has been nominated for awards and been in the industry since at least 1997. He openly admits to utilizing Daz 3D on the User Stories page ..."Starting with a Daz product allows me to move quickly. As an artist, my craving is to design and present an image that wows an audience; to bypass all the ditch digging .."
ART
The expresion or applicatin of human creative skill and imagination.
The defination of ART does not include or require a definition of the tools required or used?
Full stop
I don't consider myself an artist, as I am not consumed by it. I have made pictures of various sorts in various ways from time to time over many years. Some I liked, some I didn't. Some others liked, some they didn't. Was I making "Art"? Nope, I was just making pictures. Perhaps some may have had some artistic merit, perhaps not. But they were all definitely pictures.
Nowadays, it seems to me that more emphasis is placed upon technical merit, than artistic creativity, especially when it comes to digital graphics. I am old enough that when I was still in school I had to take courses in technical drawing - drafting. And it was all done by hand; all the actual drawing, all the lettering, everything. The instructor would take the completed drawing and place it on a drafting table, and using a T-square, a set square and an engineer's or architect's scale, would measure everything to make certain it was accurate to scale and perfectly true - including checking the vertical and horizontal alignment and spacing of the lettering. Any deviations would be noted (rather sloppily, as I recall), in red ink on the drawing. They needed to be perfect, regardless of their size or complexity. But nobody ever called it art. They were just technical drawings. But there was certainly some skill and a lot of painstaking work involved. Like creating a highly detailed and complex 3D model in ZBrush, I suppose.
It would seem to me that anyone that considers themselves a serious artist would be far too busy with their own work to have a lot a time, much less care, about whether someone else was being a "real artist". And really, who exactly has been granted the official authority to bestow the title anyway. Not me. When I'm drawing, call me a doodler, when I'm working with DAZ Studio, call me a renderer. Just don't call me during the afternoon, because I'm probably taking a nap. And when it comes to taking naps, I've truly mastered the art.
I do this as a hobby so I'm not bored out of my mind the last 15 years. My husband hates it and calls it porn cuz everything is naked and in weird positions when I'm beta testing which is when he all of a sudden shows up in my compter room. So whether I consider it art or not, he's not a fan. He considers what I do "playing" and wasting time. So it's hard to be creative and be inspired with that in mind. I'm not a vendor or content creator, but I've always thought what I do is some form of art because it's an expression of how I feel and how it translates to renders, or if I've had an experience at some point and want to recreate it. So yeah, I'm not an artist, but I'd like to think it's some form of art.
hahaha, I am all for it, let us sign a petition. That button will dave hours, days, weeks , month and even YEARS of hard work.
It is art.
It is our fantasy that we bring to life with our images.
Put an naked unposed G3F in the scene and she is like a dead body, but dress her up and change her skin, pose her and build an enviroment around her and she is alive and YOU made that possible.
Yes, would be cool if we could do all ourselfs like creating the models, hair, shoes, clothes, props... but it still wouild be DEAD until the artist puts his/her loving hands on it to bring it to life.
My husband is proud when I show him a new image I made and he enoucrages me.
My daughter is goint to University in 2 weeks to study Fine Art and can paint, and draw and model with clay and she said : Mum you are an Artist, a Digital Artist and I am proud of you.
I take her word for it and I am proud to call myself an Artist, maybe not a good one, but I love what I am doing and that is all that matters.
I think at the base of the whole artist/not artist debate is a misunderstanding of what artistry is. If you break any art in sufficiently small parts, you'll find it's just a mass of more or less defined and complex skills, be it photography, painting, writing etc.
IMO what distinguishes an artist from an amateur is the ability to use its skills through a set and clear goal. You must be able to convey what you want to convey to the spectator. In this context, the cited pile of bricks fails miserably because for most people a pile of bricks is just a pile of bricks. Unless you are brave enough to do something powerful and recognizeable with them, nobody will care and nobody will feel anything. Maybe if you made a replica of the Ishtar Gate and demolished it so that it's clearly in ruins, but still somewhat recognizeable, you might have my attention and maybe I'l try to find a meaning to that.
If you're good at conveying messages, your skill set might not be important: sticking knives into a wall is not even a skill, but if you manage to convey some meaning with that then congrats, you are an artist. If you are the best marble worker, but you only make rectangular blocks for contruction work, then you're no artist. I'm no artist, I play with Studio but can't work through a communicative goal. I render what I like, for my own use.
All of this is pretty easy to recognize in music, but it's the same prioinciple that guides all arts: the artist is someone who manages to connect people by making them feel a common feeling through his/her work. Good luck with that, you need to be really talented :)
I do this as a hobby too. Initially just for fun, but realized since discovering DAZ, I've also been forced to learn more about computers in general (like I had to figure out certain technical terms, what parts do, what I need to successfully operate DAZ and other 3D programs - yadi yada yada). And I do consider it as Art. I am just a "poser"(putting together items to make a nice scene), but I do post work as well, so yes, it is a form of digital art.
No one starts from zero.
We all use tools created by others.
Four examples.
Photoshop, 3dxMax, Paint Brushes, Canvas/Paper
... Having said that, I expect there are one or two people out there that make their own brushes and paper medium.