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I aggree with nicstt and I'd add that building your own tools/starting from scratch makes an artisan of you, not an artist.
Saying people that use DAZ and Poser aren't real artists is like saying someone isn't a real cook if they didn't grow every ingredient in the dinner they cooked and raise and slaughter the animals. If we want to get really technical and wildly split hairs, we could say no one is an artist because we didn't create the earth and everything in it.
Ridiculous argument, but at least you could use it on people that think using DAZ is fake. Look at the all the stock photos that are used to make book covers and movie posters. I view DAZ and Poser as a way to "make our own stock." And yes, we're using characters, hairs, clothing, etc that may be purchased or we make ourselves. But we pose it, light it, change the textures if we want to, change the camera angles, render it, and then in many cases, add all kinds of post work to it. That takes skill and talent. And it is an art.
I think if we're really being honest with ourselves, this whole issue is more about ego than art. As GLE so eloquently stated, real art is about having a goal and accomplishing that goal, and usually it takes a lot of talent to do it right. But I think most of us don't want to feel we're not totally awesome, and therefore we always want to believe we're doing awesome stuff. So to make that line up we make the definition of art so ambiguous and general that we find a way to fit ourselves into that definition of artist.
Heck, if you lower the bar so much that you define art as merely expressing yourself, then yeah, we're all artists.
I'm with GLE. A real artist, and a good artist, is someone who impacts others in a meaningful way. Not someone who just expresses themselves for their own enjoyment.
I beg to differ; the argument is not ridicules. I personally would not show up at a baking competition, with a cake I made using premade frosting, Betty Crocker cake mix and a few chopped and thrown on top of it. I would be proud to serve it to my family and friends, but I would not fool myself into thinking I’m some great baker and start showing of my cakes at contests.
I have a friend who makes cakes for a living, and it he does everything from scratch. He studied for years, he makes his own frosting, cake mix, etc. He is a baker… I am not.
there's another way to look at it...
I have a background in theater and photography
So to me...
this is producing and directing a play...
I build the set or hire someone to do it
I tryout actors and actresses
I have the Costumer clothe them
then I have a props person "dress the set"
then I have the lighting designer, light the scene
then I take a photograph of the stage set... or if I tell the personel to walk from point a to point b, I shoot a movie.
sometimes it's a closeup.. sometimes it's from the second row, and sometimes it's from the back of the theater ...
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although I did build the theater ... and texture the t-shirts ... and kittens are genesis under everything else.
It was Indigo Janson who taught them how to pose... and while the Victorian shoppes from way back when might be lacking in heavy realism.. they look pretty good as a stage set.
I just enjoy playing with the digital medium. Weather it be building an object in 3d or figuring out how to create certain effects without postwork.
My background started with and progressed in the following order:
pencils / pens
Colored Pencils
Acrylic Paint
Watercolor
Ink + Watercolor (Comicbook style)
Illustrator
Photoshop
Poser
Daz Studio / Hexagon
Here is an example of the combinatioon of the Daz Studio / Hexagon combo. (The set is built by me in Hexagon)
Make's me think of sixus1 He's not just the most talented Poser Vender.
Very few any where could match sixus1 talent.,sixus1 could sell his creations at main sites for 1000's.
Even fewer knows the talent it takes to make sixus1 creations.
If any one tryed to rag sixus1 ,all sixus1 would half to do is say look at what I done ,show me yours.
Does he grow the wheat for the flour and grind it himself? Does he have a cow that he milks to make the butter so he can make the frosting? Does he have his own cacao plantation so he can make the chocolate? That's how ridiculous the "purist" argument is. Almost everything comes from somewhere. Splitting hairs and saying some people aren't artists for using something premade while the people judging are using something premade is very ridiculous.
photographeres don't do anything but take pictures of esixting things..
and a point many artists who paint people .. trace from photographs on to the canvas to start...
and how about writers.. they just use words that other people created....
the art of color and design, layout, lighting etc have are skills that don't necessaryily have a companion small motor skill.. neither does small motor skill give you the art of color design, etc...
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most singers don't write their own songs... and if they do the borrow words and notes from someone else...
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all any of us really do is rearrange stuff ... hopefully in a way that appeals to other people... and appeal has nothing to do with skills..
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I have one friend who has won major awards within the field he writes in yet one day when we were talking about writing he comment that so an so was an excellant writer ... he knew after only reading a couple pages of her book... but he also said that was all he read because he also knew that the book would be of no interest to him.
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we all have music we like to hear or play, art we like to look at and art we like to create.
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As it happens I like Edward Hopper... by working in 3d I have one advantage over him... when I build a building, I am not bound by the paint I laid down on the canvas... I can still change angles etc...
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he painted the view from the top of the williamsburg bridge... I modeled the same buildings and can "photograph" the view from the bottom of the bridge...
and I model the street lights and the headlights which are the light in the picture... the characters are highly modifed genesis... and nope my 3d skills aren't up to doing the truck and car yet...
I'd like to put some enphasys on another process that goes on in the background: we choose what NOT to use. With all the stuff available at all the stores, we invest a decent amount of time scouring the libraries and the stores for that one item, or to compare available alternatives. This is a bit like photography, where you are in charge of what to show in and hide from the picture. The workflow is different because while in other arts you first have to sketch, prepare and study and then paint/sculpt/compose the real thing, with CG your draft directly becomes your creation (maybe besides postproduction).
Is this a fair advantage? Sure. Negating it for the sake of the old ways would mean leaving a powerful tool unused. It would also mean disregarding circa 70 years of progress and history. Among the strengths of the digital world is ease of replication (lots of identical copies with no effort): why would you not exploit it?
Long story short:
- Is CG a useful tool? Yes (you can literally make airplanes using it.)
- Can you use it to make art? Sure (every piece of technology gets used to make art, including anvils.)
- Does using CG automagically make an artist of you? Not really (as much as DSLR =/= photographer.)
- Does starting from scratch every time allow you to create better art? Only if the stores can't produce what you want, and only if what you want is so peculiar your audience will notice the difference. Else it would just be a big loss of time, unless you reeeeeally like doing what you do, or you just work for yourself, in which case you're not an artist anyway.
Just imagine if Michelangelo or Leonardo da Vinci had CG at their disposal. They would be artists even using it, and I'm no artist even if I use it :/
I sometimes give a short presentation on rendering in DAZ Studio at science-fantasy conventions. Here, for whatever it's worth, is what is on my slide for 'But Is It Art?'. It is a non-question, really, and the answer is a Zen 'mu'. I get to make pictures that I like, and sometimes other people like. There is no 'art', and no 'artists'.
- Anti-Poser (and DAZ Studio) sentiment among, for example, comic artists.
- The Uncanny Valley
- Is photography art? Is collage art? Do you have to start with a pen or brush and ink?
- Question usually means, “Is it good art?”
- There is no CREATE ART button.
I think true art fans would think otherwise. Post some of your stuff publicly and let them prove your friend's friend wrong. Art is subjective the only one who can identify it as art is the one who is viewing it. One of my most famous pieces is related to my avatar and it literally only features Michael 4 in a muscle skin. It is by far my most viral piece I have ever made and I still get compliments and requests because of it.
Christ, this issue again!?
All one needs to do is look to our very own PAs to see that this is a pointless discussion as every PA here/Rendo/tica is an actual professional artist in every sense of the word...Note that these self-righteous douche-bags always use an an example of a first time, or casual/hobbyist artist to justify their argument! BOLLOCKS I say, (Mainly because I cannot use an American colloquial equivalent here, and that I'm a bit of an Anglophille!
) as even traditional painters, sculptors, and photographers have mediocre/amateur-level/hobbyist artists among their ranks! They also miss the point that hobbyist artists are doing this as an expression of their vision on what inspires them, rather than getting paid for, or even going down in history as leaders in their field!
So you would do well to pay those malcontented douche-bags no heed and continue your hobby in spite of them!
Again, it's not about a strict definition. You can define "artist" however you want, and claim that many meet the practical definition, but that doesn't change the point of the discussion.
The point is that others look down their noses at DAZ/Poser users because the perception is they are not skilled or talented, or ultimately "good". That's what upsets DAZ/Poser users, having others look down their noses.
The real question is "if you place the stuff that is produced by DAZ/Poser users in front of the world and asked for feedback regarding whether it affects them and tells a story or whatever, what would the response be?"
Personally, based on what I've seen, most people would find it to be amateurish and uninteresting. Yes, there are exceptions, but those are few and far between. Now its fine if we all agree that some things produced here with DAZ/Poser is awesome, but in the real world that's somewhat irrelevant. If you want the world to not look down their noses at you then you have to produce stuff that's meaningful for them. You can call yourself an artist if that makes you happy, but that won't change the world's perceptions.
My point exactly, "as even traditional painters, sculptors, and photographers have mediocre/amateur-level/hobbyist artists among their ranks! " It makes no difference on the media in which you use as there will always be new, amateurish and professional quality within all mediums, as traditionalists still consider all digital art as simple button pressing...
Never mind..... Thank you
I was set up selling some of my prints and overheard... 'he uses photoshop' and 'not a real artist' . I couldn';t resist... I handed the person a ruler and told her that the wagon wheel was drawing ith straight lines and chalenged her to draw me a circle using straight lines only. I started putting how many lines were in the drawing after that. Her friends were laughing at her as they walked away. Of course some people familar with photo shop started asking questions about using the line tool after hearing my challenge. I brought out a sculpture made of recycled wire. The copper was from cut off's from a job site after the electricians went through and the base was old coathanger (if you look you will see flakes of blue left on purpose). All in all, not bad for 'not a real artist'.
I don't hold anger when I hear the comment. For the longest time I called myself a doodler. It took an instructor in art classes to make me say I am an artist. I thank her for that. oh and yes I still doodle, lol. The train in my 'into the yard'
This is a very old argument. My take is, how do you define "art"? My definition is, art is something that tells a story, regardless of the medium. Whether it's oils on a canvas, watercolrs on paper, clay sculptures, or 3D. Does it really matter what medium was used to tell a story? If the image that was made in DAZ or Poser gets the imagination going and draws the viewer into a story, to me, that's art. I heard this argument many years ago when I first got started in 3D. On another site years ago, I was pretty active in the forums, and this topic came up repeatedly. I really think it's nothing to make a big deal of. Art is very subjective. I'm not a fan of Picasso. I see his stuff an sort of a mess, but I'm not going to say that it's not art. If you have a visual story to tell and you use DAZ Studio to tell that story, then it's art, in my opinion. Maybe some people won't agree with me, but that's okay.
Here's a reasonable definition of art:
"...the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power."
I've highlighted what I think are the most important aspects. Nowhere does it define the tools you must use. The important thing is what is produced. Is it a good expression, using skill and imagination, is it appreciated, and does it transmit beauty or emotional power?
IMO, most stuff that I've seen, and most stuff I've ever produced, doesn't meet those criteria. In fact I think it's really rare for someone to have what it takes to produce stuff that meets most of those criteria. Personally, I don't have the skill or imagination to produce stuff that many people would appreciate. I'm much better at making software and other unrelated stuff. And my feelings aren't hurt when someone tells me I'm not an artist. Cuz I'm not.
That's why there are very few people recognized as great artists. Tools are irrelevant, but what's produced is what's important.
Do not really care. Never claimed to be an artist, it’s not my profession, or goal. Daz is purely a hobby for fun. Not that much different from the countless people who own musical instruments that play from sheet music in their spare time and maybe not all that well . . . for fun and because they like it.
I for one, think you expressed it very eloquently... And it's nice to see a colloquial english word pop up.
as new people come to this hobby they discover these prejudices for the first time.
for others it is a tired old argument rehashed often, akin to flogging a dead horse, hence thread closure
as time passes hopefully the old school will pass and digit art gets the legitimacy it should
We must not confuse artistic approach with technical mastery. As Daz studio's users, we can have a artistic approach, but we don't have the same technical mastery than people creating their characters form zero. Our works are easier and faster to do, we need less knowledges and less artistic skills, because a big part of our work is already made. Our creations are less free because already determinated by the products we buy. That the same situation if we compare an artist creating a work of art with manufactured objects or usual objets, with a painter or a sculptor starting from a white canvas or from a block of stone, the first one uses mainly his eyes, his aesthetic sense and his knowledge of the reactions of people who will watch his work, the second one use also hard to learn technics. The second having more merit, it's normal that he is more admired, but that doesn't mean that the first has no artistic talent.
It is all semantics...
They didn't program the 3D-program that they are using to model, and unless they are scanning actual people into models, they will never look real. (If you are using V4 stuff, then you don't mind unrealistic "hand made" models.)
That is like an artist complaining about someone using photoshop, because it doesn't use real brushes. Yet, there is someone out there complaining about them, saying, "You didn't make your own paints and brushes, so you aren't a real artist"...
Art is subjective. If it is not reality, then it is art. (An artistic interpritation of reality) Ignore anyone who has the time to complain about it any other way. They are obviously not spending time creating anything worthwhile. If they were, they wouldn't have to say anything at all, they would be creating "art". Just ask them for any credentials, any quallifications that make them an "Art authority". Then ask them for a work of art that they produced, without tools.
A discussion as old as time. Photographers, Filmmakers, Animators, Digital Painters ... they've all had to deal with the critics saying what they did wasn't "real art". I bet the first caveman who used a stick as a brush to draw instead of his fingers was told he wasn't really creating "art". Enjoy what you do. Let others apply whatever labels they want to it.
Heh, thanks!
Yeah, I cannot stand reading this "you're not a real artist" argument, especially when it comes from polygonal modelers, vs daz/poser users as digital modelers are themselves not considered "real artists" by their real-world sculptor counterparts! I use ZBrush myself for both free-form and to modify Daz characters, as rigging/modeling the bend-polys are too tedious for me, and simply gets in the way of my own work flow!
Of course we are real artists.
I keep seeing this thred and wanted to add something
I can probably not say I am a real fish breeder since I do not do anything to breed fish, which is true I guess. I get new guppies every so often, but I do not do anything to make the guppies (other than keep the guppies alive and they do the rest even if I do not want them to do so) My aim is not to breed show quality guppies but to have a guppies in my aquarium.
Also technically any animal breeders do not make their own animals from scratch. I am pretty sure that even pure bred kittens (and puppies) require a female cat (or dog in case of puppies) and a male equilivant to be made.
I am pretty sure that a chef does not make his own chicken. Even the ones who raise their own chickens to cook do not actually make their own chickens. My brother has hens to make his eggs he uses for breakfast he makes.
My point is that no matter what field, no body makes everything. I am interested in computer animation. I noticed that the Incredibles 2 was not made by one person! I tried to sit through the credits but there was a lot of people who made the movie. Why do we think that we are not real artists because we do not "make" everything?
My mum is an artist but she does not make her own paint or canvases or other mediums she uses. My Dad makes violins but he does not grow his own trees and cut them down to make the wood.
I keep rambling, but even with Legos, there are the ones who follow the directions and make what is on the box, then there are the ones who do not follow the directions and either make something amazing or something unknown what it is.
I have decided there are prejudices anywhere and everywhere. I work in fast food. Yes, I say something to the akin of would you like fries with that, but fast food jobs can be hard. I have to be on my feet all day. I have to deal with customers (aka people who are not always polite or patient). Not only that I have to make sure they leave in a better mood than they came. There is a lot to do with fast food other than selling fries and flipping burgers (which we do not sell by the way). I work at a Philly Steak place and the streak (and chicken) has to be cooked right or it will be too tough or raw or something bad.
Someone might say to me when will I get a "real job" as if my job is not real, which is not the truth. I get paid and I work hard.
My advice is ignore the prejudice thinking and be the best artist you can be. By the way, there is even content sold for Maya or Cinema 4D or what not? I have an educational version of both, but using either one does not make me a better artist than using DS or Poser. oh Wow I figured out how to make a sphere in Cinema 4D 0.o Okay that was not exciting. Maybe I need to find some videos on Lynda or YouTube to learn how to do something other than a sphere. Now to learn how to make sphere into a bouncing ball. wait that might require some dynamics or something similar to morphs or something or key frames.
o.0
Exactly, happy someone understands