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This thread has been an eye-opener for me. I don't yet know anything about weight mapping or moving bones, but I'd like to learn. I have lots of DAZ products that don't seem to bend well, etc. I just didn't know that vendors could and should have rigged it better!
I have learned to look for morphs on the product page. My eyes were opened to this when I got the Mall Girl outfit with Young Teens. Wow, it was wonderfully full of morphs and options to fit to figures and other clothes! That product was made by DAZ 3D and Dogz.. From that product alone, I became a Dogz fan and bought several other Dogz outfits. So a quality product can lead to more sales. On the other hand, I see lots of interesting clothes by DAZ 3D and Bobbie25. They never have ANY morphs listed. I've just quit buying any of those, sadly, after being disappointed in some.
Well, I wasn't trying to "offer excuses" for things being the way they are. I personally like to understand the limitations creators are working under, because it helps me to know what to expect and what to watch out for.
Well said Kattey! I'm an amateur modeller and my knowledge of rigging is slim. But even I know to change the handles if I was going to release a freebie and that takes all of 10 minutes if that.
I have a few questions though...I was recently playing with the weightmapping brush as I'm trying to work out how to use it properly and I noticed that if I use the smoothing brushing when the item is posed that I can fix things like some of the mesh distortions that I've been creating morphs for. Why isn't this used more by vendors? My biggest gripe with skirts is the texture distortion caused by this.
Secondly, if creating movement morphs is the best way to go. What are peoples expectations about the types of movement included.
I've been working on a skirt for a character and I've put in leg forward morphs but was unsure what others I should be including and I want to do this right.
I would really like to know what people think should be included.
render of movement morph....please note this is still a wip so looks a bit rough.
I really like this dress, but the skirt annoys me. I tried readjusting, but that would cause the knee or the foot clipping through and no way to expand the skirt. If I can expand the skirt and use Kattey's method, it might work. Is there a way to expand the skirt of this dress outward?
I've pretty much stopped buying outfits if the artist has proven to be someone who rigs their skirts/kilts/loincloths to the legs. I'm sorry to hear that the new Umberfugly outfit has the same issue.
At least morphs that imitate four basic ghost handles (front-back-left-right) bend/twist/side-side would be cool. Three morphs that affect the whole skirt in same say. Sitting/kneeling morph would be nice - it is ok if it doesn't work for all sitting/kneeling situations, it isn't possible without dynamics, but at least some would be wonderful.
Morphs that imitate wind, i.e. not only move but also lift skirt skirt. AerySoul/AlfaSeed usually have very nice morphs for their longer 'skirts', you can use some of their promos as a references.
if it must be rigged to legs I would still want a front and back handle if it is possible too
I prefer not rigged too now ( since I discovered in Carrara I can enable and unenable tracking easily unlike weightpainting)
Hmm... I would Pay money for better rigged items. I'm a DAZ3D nut but do hate that most of the Items I wanted to use for some of my Art Projects had this Leg Lock problem. Heck I would Prefer NO rigging for most of it and do deformer shaping if I had to. Then at least I could get the shape I needed in my renders.
Thanks For the Semi fix tips.
Pendraia, I usually like walking morphs (like you're already doing), kneeling, sitting, and general movement morphs for breezes moving the fabric around.
At least morphs that imitate four basic ghost handles (front-back-left-right) bend/twist/side-side would be cool. Three morphs that affect the whole skirt in same say. Sitting/kneeling morph would be nice - it is ok if it doesn't work for all sitting/kneeling situations, it isn't possible without dynamics, but at least some would be wonderful.
Morphs that imitate wind, i.e. not only move but also lift skirt skirt. AerySoul/AlfaSeed usually have very nice morphs for their longer 'skirts', you can use some of their promos as a references.
Thanks Kattey, that gives me a starting point...my stuff is generally freebies but I try to do them as best I can. They do improve slowly...; )
Kattey, you took the words out of my mouth and stated it a lot more eloquently than I could. This is something I've been steamed about for a while. I too bought that Horned Barbarian and was horrified to see the problems with the loin. Unfortunately I hadn't tried it out till after the 30 days so was unable to return it. And a couple of times when I've seen something similar get released, I've posted in teh forum to find out about the outfit before purchasing it (and in all times, I haven't purchased it, because of that exact problem). I've been burnt, wasting my money, and refuse to have it happen again. I simply don't understand, I really don't. I honestly cannot understand an outfit being released with this problem. When you cannot do an action pose because the skirt/loincloth acts like that, what on earth is the use of the product???? I"ve learnt to study promos very very closely, and if the skirt/loin is never shown in any position where the legs are anything OTHER than close together, I pass it over. I'm tired of it. I am really really tired of it. That Horned Barbarian product would have been returned immediately if I had tried it out when I bought it. I don't spend the money here any more, any spare cash I have that I want to put towards my little hobby is going elsewhere, and about the only time I'm purchasing here is to do that infernal search for a DO to use my PC coupon on. (which is getting harder and harder each month when the DO's are exactly as described....or cookie cutter outfits that all look the same and all have stiletto boots)
Actually, I finally found something to use my PC coupon on this month and it was those cool Sky Chaser things - cos I like midnight_stories stuff and usually put him at the top of my Buy list. *grin*
Sadly, it isn't just clothing. Products that don't work reasonably are released without people knowing the wiser. Hairs which don't adjust or fit exactly right, accessories for animals like Horse 2, which you cannot use or pose, outfits with limited or no materials zones, weapons with no hand autofit feature.
It is no wonder that there are zero horse pose sets using the saddle and bridle that was bundled with it, because they are quite difficult for most people to pose.
Kattey, you took the words out of my mouth and stated it a lot more eloquently than I could. This is something I've been steamed about for a while. I too bought that Horned Barbarian and was horrified to see the problems with the loin. Unfortunately I hadn't tried it out till after the 30 days so was unable to return it. And a couple of times when I've seen something similar get released, I've posted in teh forum to find out about the outfit before purchasing it (and in all times, I haven't purchased it, because of that exact problem). I've been burnt, wasting my money, and refuse to have it happen again. I simply don't understand, I really don't. I honestly cannot understand an outfit being released with this problem. When you cannot do an action pose because the skirt/loincloth acts like that, what on earth is the use of the product???? I"ve learnt to study promos very very closely, and if the skirt/loin is never shown in any position where the legs are anything OTHER than close together, I pass it over. I'm tired of it. I am really really tired of it. That Horned Barbarian product would have been returned immediately if I had tried it out when I bought it. I don't spend the money here any more, any spare cash I have that I want to put towards my little hobby is going elsewhere, and about the only time I'm purchasing here is to do that infernal search for a DO to use my PC coupon on. (which is getting harder and harder each month when the DO's are exactly as described....or cookie cutter outfits that all look the same and all have stiletto boots)
Actually, I finally found something to use my PC coupon on this month and it was those cool Sky Chaser things - cos I like midnight_stories stuff and usually put him at the top of my Buy list. *grin*
I understand your frustration with Horned Barbarian: the skirt rigging there is crime against proper rigging. This is, for example, how I'd fix it. There'd be bones added for front and back loincloth (front-back, side-side, twist), while side chains would still be able to move separately from legs and from the loincloth(es). It took me about 30 minutes and it was done entirely in DS. I'm sure a professional rigger, who is getting paid to rig many clothes, will be able to do the same faster and better instead of outputting half-baked rigging like we have in default Horned Barbarian.
And I strongly suspect that DS 4.6 introduced non-normalized weightmaps, because I was able to attach two different strong weightmaps to the same area which wasn't possible before (as before if there were two maps for same area one map was subtracted from another so they both totaled 100%). If so, there is no reason not to create several ghost bones.
What DAZ needs to do is get Optiex off it's butt to finish cloth dynamics properly. The Cloth plugin was released back in the Spring of 2009. Since then, zip.
No, dynamics doesn't take the place of proper rigging. Nor will it replace adjustment morphs.
Add to that characters that come without specular maps, or just desaturated diffuse textures for bump / spec maps. (more of a Renderosity problem, though, in my experience)
Looks like Sickle just released a dress rig for genesis 2 female
http://www.daz3d.com/new-releases/sickle-dress-rig-genesis-2-female
That'll save most of us the headache.
Will it? From what I'm seeing in promo shots (small promo #2, elven lord outfit) long skirts there still follow legs. They might follow legs better (as long skirt conversion is a huge headache by itself in default autofit that DAZ3D is unwilling to fix) but they still follow legs instead of having ghost bones added. It says 'skirt handles' but I'm not seeing any evidence of front handle movements so it might be just disassociated thigh/shin bones. Better than nothing but still not a proper skirt rigging.
P.S. Have this thread got culled? I could swear it was couple of posts longer.
Will it? From what I'm seeing in promo shots (small promo #2, elven lord outfit) long skirts there still follow legs. They might follow legs better (as long skirt conversion is a huge headache by itself in default autofit that DAZ3D is unwilling to fix) but they still follow legs instead of having ghost bones added. It says 'skirt handles' but I'm not seeing any evidence of front handle movements so it might be just disassociated thigh/shin bones. Better than nothing but still not a proper skirt rigging.
P.S. Have this thread got culled? I could swear it was couple of posts longer.
Yes...one of my posts has been temporarily removed while they checked if it was okay to edit out a reference to another post that was removed. I can't remember which one it was though or whose post. As I've given permission my post should be returned shortly.
I can't answer a lot of the issues raised here, but there are a (bigamous) couple of points I'd like to address:
While smoothing can work wonders for some poses, it can also increase the risk of poke-through. For me, I generally find smoothing between the leg (or leg-handle) bones desirable and add it after the fact but for another user, with different posing habits, my perfectly acceptable re-rigging may be a nightmare of poke-through. PAs have to rig for a generic user, which means they need to offer a set-up that is at least not going to break badly under most conceivable use patterns even if that means it isn't ideal for any.
Although the Littlefox was apparently rigged by DAZ that is exceptional - most items are delivered to DAZ rigged, mapped and textured. If you look at the credits you can often see that a team of PAs has worked on a product to cover all the tasks needed.
Until DS 4.6 the weight-mapped system seems to be quite poor for handles - I know I've posted about my disappointment with what was possible. 4.6 has improved the situation but we need to remember that just as there is a clear demand for items with good handles there is also a clear demand fro items that work in older versions of DS (4.5, at least, and in some cases 4.0) which is incompatible with using the new tools.
I do have to add that even with the old system things aren't perfect - handles are my proffered option, but sometimes the pivot point is not where I need it (again, the item has to be made for use by multiple people with different needs - my problem was usually from tilting the hip), morphs can balloon unpleasantly and again may put the "pivot" in the wrong place, and on TriAx figures following the legs, while not welcome to most posters here, can be right for other users.
Richard, what is your take on default rigging of Horned Barbarian? Is that 'can be right for some users' kind of rigging?
My take on this is that isn't practical to expect that the conforming skirt would behave realistically in all possible situations but what my initial post was about is that way too many DOs with even short (not mentioning long) skirts are having the rigging that is extremely lazily done even in cases when the fabric flow itself would suggest a different rigging setup (front/back loincloth). I'm not taking about ultra-realism but there isn't any _minimal_ effort to improve that sort of rigging, it isn't even on 'average' level, it is below it.
Richard, what is your take on default rigging of Horned Barbarian? Is that 'can be right for some users' kind of rigging?
My take on this is that isn't practical to expect that the conforming skirt would behave realistically in all possible situations but what my initial post was about is that way too many DOs with even short (not mentioning long) skirts are having the rigging that is extremely lazily done even in cases when the fabric flow itself would suggest a different rigging setup (front/back loincloth). I'm not taking about ultra-realism but there isn't any _minimal_ effort to improve that sort of rigging, it isn't even on 'average' level, it is below it.
I didn't create, or commission if it was always intended as a buyout, the item so I don't know what the intent was or what the trade-offs were. It certainly wouldn't be something I would regard as satisfactory for me, but I don't feel comfortable going beyond that comment.
Been complaining about this from the time Genesis launched. V4 skirts weren't perfect by a long shot, and hardly any of them sat, but the good ones had handles that worked. Genesis stuff sort-of sat, but tended to look wrong, regardless.
I read all the posts for this thread and I have to agree with the low quality of many items on various levels that are now being sold. As to the problem with bones or lack there of, the morphs and ghosts, I see no reason why these can not be done better. Wancow has a freebie that will help add the proper bones in a dress, you can use just the skirt one's if that is what you need. That being said, would those bones be the best for all skirts and/or dresses, or should new one's be made each time. Every item is different to some degree, so maybe the bones should be as well. Where is it written that you can only use weight-mapping or Genesis to apply bones? Genesis is a human model, not a piece of clothing, so why is a human model's bones being used on a piece of clothing? And for the record, I have never come across a skirt or dress that doe a proper sit morph unless it's dynamic and even then there could be some problems.
My peeve is the fit of female tops which often looks just... Plain bad. Smooth shiny plasticy tops are terribly unattractive and so unrealistic I won't buy them. What's wrong with added some foundation support, some seams, lines, pleats and folds and matte textures that look like real fabric? Or maybe some layers, if the first look cannot be entirely overcome?
I was hoping with the advent of gen 2 we'd move beyond genesis pudding/dough to making it easier to add some new realism to how characters dress.
Serene - continuing on this complaint about unrealistic cloth with respect to gravity - what do you think of the outfit worn by Ghia in the main promo. I think its called the Greek Goddess Outfit. Not something I would use because it seems like its "impossible" to wear in real life. Would not the bronze loops pull down the top in front under any movement. And the bottom - she be bare with the slightest breeze or even moving a thigh. Again the heavy ornament would rotate the wrap around and hang low....
I suppose this could be only used in a static, fantasy render or to encourage sales of the Pro version. (Cause it reveals her privates).
Serene - continuing on this complaint about unrealistic cloth with respect to gravity - what do you think of the outfit worn by Ghia in the main promo. I think its called the Greek Goddess Outfit. Not something I would use because it seems like its "impossible" to wear in real life. Would not the bronze loops pull down the top in front under any movement. And the bottom - she be bare with the slightest breeze or even moving a thigh. Again the heavy ornament would rotate the wrap around and hang low....
I suppose this could be only used in a static, fantasy render or to encourage sales of the Pro version. (Cause it reveals her privates).
That's one of the reasons why I passed on the "Pro" version this time around. I bought Gia and then picked and chose what singular packs I thought were reasonable. I really liked the Jogger pack. Has some realistic options that I actually see at the gym and joggers around the neighborhood. Most of the rest of it was just too much and a total turn off. Didn't even like most of the skin options. But liked Neomi allot! The ONE fantasy outfit I bought was Dark Winds. Seemed reasonable while being sexy. I don't even know if anything with skirt rigging has been released for Gene 02F as of yet that's memorable. Hopefully with SickleYields new rigging pack (which DOES have ghost bones included in it) I will have some nice outfits for Gene 02F / Gia
Storybook Princess for the V3 morphing fantasy dress has a climb morph and a kneel morph. I can't check if these morphs work on any but V3 as I don't have access to my Gen 3 runtimes at the moment.
Serene - continuing on this complaint about unrealistic cloth with respect to gravity - what do you think of the outfit worn by Ghia in the main promo. I think its called the Greek Goddess Outfit. Not something I would use because it seems like its "impossible" to wear in real life. Would not the bronze loops pull down the top in front under any movement. And the bottom - she be bare with the slightest breeze or even moving a thigh. Again the heavy ornament would rotate the wrap around and hang low....
I suppose this could be only used in a static, fantasy render or to encourage sales of the Pro version. (Cause it reveals her privates).
The top is not my favorite, although at least it has folds which are lacking in so many corsety-plasticy-tops. The bottom has some potential as a loincloth, assuming it has adjustments.
Overall, It didn't inspire immediate purchase, because breasts underneath this top would not have any foundation. I know it is supposed to look sexy, but to me it looks really improbable.. it looks doughy. Large breasted characters (and lets face it most daz females are well-endowed), would sag underneath sparse coverings. Texture is minimal. I like my characters to have clothing with some detail that behave somewhat like real clothing.
I have it on my wishlist, and if it turns out to be marked off heavily I may buy it, because I sometimes need loincloth/fantasy/scifi underwear.
They also need to read their copy. Typos.
That's one of the reasons why I passed on the "Pro" version this time around. I bought Gia and then picked and chose what singular packs I thought were reasonable. I really liked the Jogger pack. Has some realistic options that I actually see at the gym and joggers around the neighborhood. Most of the rest of it was just too much and a total turn off. Didn't even like most of the skin options. But liked Neomi allot! The ONE fantasy outfit I bought was Dark Winds. Seemed reasonable while being sexy. I don't even know if anything with skirt rigging has been released for Gene 02F as of yet that's memorable. Hopefully with SickleYields new rigging pack (which DOES have ghost bones included in it) I will have some nice outfits for Gene 02F / Gia
I considered the pro pack before just getting the starter pack. I agree with you about the textures. I was most disappointed by Aspen who I just cannot get to render properly. She is quite pale and looks washed out. Her makeup looks bright and garish. I can't get a happy medium. Perhaps my fault, but not my favorite.
I also agree about Neomi. my favorite new character even over Gia's default skin. I only wish for a no facial tattoo option, while preserving the tribal on the body.
Clothing included in Gia, do not suit my idea of female warrior.
The hair included with Gia also has been disappointing to me.