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I don't see how it could be an error that the cards get sold for 600 over MRP, although having access to cards they shouldn't can of course be an error. Fair dos to MSI for insisting refunds are offered, although how they could do anything else but insist a refund is offered is somewhat mitigatory for any cudos heading MSI's way.
Agreed, but there are steps that can be taken, including only allowing a maximum to any given address/person/card account.
Nvidia still hasn't done what it did with the 2000 series, namely limiting the purchase to a maximum of two.
... Why is that?
Does AMD limit the number of cards per customer? I don't know. If they don't then maybe that's why Nvidia doesn't
now.
They did back during the mining craze but I haven't checked recently, it was one IIRC.
Nobody has any real numbers but the anecdotes people have is that the stock was comparable at least to the 2000 series launch. The guy I know who works at the Chicago Microcenter says they got close to if not more 3080's than they got 2080's when that launched. But he also says Microcenter has been doing at least 25% more hardware sales than they did 2 years ago. He said that his commissions are crazy this year. The store had people camping outside the store before it opened for the 3080's (the people in line were limited to one each and that accounted for every card in the store before it opened).
I think we'll know more when the Ryzen 5000's hit stores in a couple of weeks. If those disappear instantly as well that means HW demand across the board is just crazy high.
It is supposed to be higher than normal due to Corvid. Although it seems to be more opinion than any real hard evidence; it does make sense though, which doesn't, however, make it correct.
I guess I am just confused about the importance of product secrecy in the couple months leading up to product launch. I would think that 6 weeks prior to release that the die would be cast, so to speak. I would much rather have "leaks" so that everybody knows what is coming before it comes, than by try to keep everything "secret", product goes out the door that doesn't meet expectation because it had to be rushed for secrecy's sake.
Pre-release secrecy exists in the chipmaking business primarily to combat corporate espionage - not out of an arbitrary desire to have "secrecy for secrecy's sake."
Not really. Preventing leaks prior to release aren't about corporate espionage, there isn't the sort of data that matter for that, but supposedly to keep the public engaged for the actual release.
The companies carefully manage the "leaks" to build the hype and don't want any leaks they don't plan themselves.
@RayDAnt is obviously correct, and so is @kenshaw011267 but I think for a slightly different reason.
If you don't think that corporate espionage is a thing, and a huge thing, check out the Association of Former Intelligence Officers or the National Military Intelligence Association websites and see what all the intelligence professionals who took their specialized skills to the private sector after the big draw-down of the early '90s at the end of the Cold War. The intelligence needs of a multinational corporation are the same as a nation state's, and if you don't believe this, you have a very naive view of the world when billions are concerned.
But what gets less attention is the other side of the coin. Whether you call is MISO, PSYOPS, disinformation, propaganda, or just advertising, the ability to cause your adversary to take specific actions is equally sought after as intelligence on his future actions. Among other things, Joint Publication 3-13.4 says that having discrete channels through which to deliver disinformation to the intended audience, and only the intended audience, not friendly forces, is so important that if the intended audience doesn't have one, you have to create one for it.
And that is what I think all the leakers are. If it were just "hype" they were after, well, that's what marketing already is. It's these companies delivering disinformation to its intended audience and only its intended audience, i.e. to deliver their tailored messages to us, which is legal, and not the SEC, which is most definitely not legal. Does anybody actually believe that these YouTube goofballs actually know anything that wasn't told to them by the company itself, perhaps indirectly, in such a way that affords plausible deniability? Does anybody actually believe that actual leaks are not investigated and have severe criminal penalties?
It was really a brilliant idea, when you think about it.
Indeed, where money is involved folks will murder, and it doesn't have to be more than a few pounds or dollars. So what will some/many be prepared to do for billions?
Ok...
I am not under a delusion that corporate espionage doesn't happen, not sure what I said that would imply that... but be that as it may.
I just can see the value in the percieved "hype" buzz of a launch when compared to the possible downside and negative press associated with a half baked launch cause it looks like you were more worried about "secrecy" than you were delivering a product that works.
For example. If I don't tell my 14 year old he is getting a Play Station 5 for Chrstimas, he will get a 10 second rush on Christmas morning because it was a "surprise".
But If I tell him on October 1st that, "Hey, I just bought a Play Station, you can't use it till Christmas, but lets look at the reviews on line and see what cool games are coming out. And then for the next 85 Days we watch reviews, check out the websites, buy into the hype.... Its a better ride than "surprise". At lest, that is my perception.
I would Imagine all the real corporate espionage is related to the factories that are making the products and the delveopment aspects. But, I guess I don't really understand business or marketing because the way I see it, the more people that are involved with blogs, youtube videos, magazine articles, and are involved with the testing/reviewing before launch, the better instead of, "gee, I wonder if Nvidia's next card is going to be any good?"
It is certainly true that anticipation is part of the fun. there is a potential issue, even problem, though; what happens when the hype (in your case the PS5) doesn't live up to expections? That aditional anticipation will contribute to the disappointment.
That is what happened here; the performance gain is great for the 3000 series, however, it isn't really what Nvidia are claiming - remember these are gaming cards not render cards.
Sorry, it wasn't anything that you said. It's just that the idea that leakers are somehow privy to information that the company did not want them to have persists.
You're totally right about the hype, and that may be part of it, but the fact that the companies use people unaffiliated with them instead of their own marketing departments is probably not a coincidence, but rather the point. If someone else said it, the company can spread whatever information for whatever purpose without the SEC accusing them of having deceived their shareholders. This, to me, seems a much more likely scenario than some guy in his den knows something that NVidia or AMD or intel or whoever doesn't want him to know, and better yet, didn't use that information to seriously enrich himself, but posted a video on his YouTube channel. The whole idea is ridiculous... it's kind of like those get-rich scams on late night TV where no one asks the presenter "If you've gotten so rich using these methods, then why are you willing to tell me for 4 easy payments of $39.95?"
Another 3080TI 20GB article
Maybe Daz will support the Apere when they all become reaonably available. And by resonable, I mean normal prices, not bend you over prices.
https://www.tomsguide.com/news/nvidia-rtx-3080-could-get-a-huge-boost-to-torpedo-amd-big-navi
The problem with disclosing full specs six weeks before launch of a hardware product, is, that you give competitors six weeks to formulate an answer.
If AMD were to say right now that they'll release a $500 card with 10 GB VRAMM and a framerate comparable to the 3070, then take a wild guess what kind of card NVIDIA will start producing as early as next week, and "leak" in about four weeks? So, obviously, AMD isn't showing it's cards yet, and neither will NVIDIA. Whatever AMD announces, NVIDIA will start a response, and the sooner NVIDIA knows what AMD is upto, the sooner NVIDIA can formulate that response.
Similarly, NVIDIA is "leaking" some information about a next line-up, following the late 30xx series. Whether it's true or false information doesn't even matter. What matters to them is, whether AMD responds, whether AMD invests more than they should trying to beat these rumors with their own product, so basically, whether AMD takes a gamble and what bait they go for. These aren't simple gambles for AMD to take part in, it could as easily turn them into the leader on the GPU market as it could ruin the company. Or, they could play it safe for now and stick to their second place underdog role for a few more years.
Its called money. Its no different than how some hoarded toilet paper & hand sanitizer. Scumbag A sees something a lot of people need or want and buys as many units as they can as early as possible, and then resells it at an overly inflated price. There's really no incentive for Nvidia to limit card purchases, but rather the opposite. If they have 1,000 units to sell and some silly arse wants to buy a couple hundred of them right away, well from a business perspective, its smarter & faster money to make that sale instead of waiting to "hopefully" sell the same number of units over a longer period of time with the added overhead cost.
Imo, the only reason they placed limits on card purchases during the "butt coin" craze is the cards weren't intended for that use and they didn't want to risk the investment into the additional cost to meet the extra demand that is based on intangible virtual crap that has absolutely no backing or regulation.
I hear you... but at this point, what does it really buy you?... 4 Weeks? My uneducated guess is that developing a video card is like turning around a battle ship. Its not done quicky on a dime. And regardless, once it goes live the "other company" I am sure just buys a stack of em to test/compare decondstruct etc... which has to be better than just hearing a rumor and trying to respond.
You guys have made great points about the whole SEC thing and shareholders which, quite frankly, I didn't even consider...
So thanks again, all involved in this thread, as I really am learning a lot.
There are really two different things here.
People talks about GPU's and graphics cards interchangeably a lot but they're seperate.
It takes years to develop a new GPU microarchitecture, Ampere or RDNA2. The GPU's based on each microarchitecture are more or less the same, think of them as being produced with a cookie cutter. but in a later step some part of the cookie is cut off.
The GPU is then mounted on a PCB and sold as a graphics card.
Graphics cards take weeks, roughly, to develop. The engineering is relatively basic. PCB design can be done in a few days at most. The cooler likely doesn't take even that long unless the AIB is trying something new. Tooling takes some time though. I'm no expert on that side of things but from what I've been told it can take some time to setup the instructions so the machines can do the placement of the SMD's.
https://hexus.net/tech/news/graphics/146008-amd-outs-radeon-rx-6000-performance-rtx-3080/
Teaser, that may be indicative of what to expect; or may be the absolute closest AMD can get - who knows? AMD.
Hoarding has nothing to do with Nvidia chosing NOT to limit the number for sale to orders/addresses or whatever. Some means of limiting purchase of them would have made it more complicated by at least a little. By not doing that hoarding was not restricted at all.
Again...
Why is that?
Of course there's an incentive, they are seen to be doing something with regards to ebayers buying them up. It doesn't matter how effective it is, only that they are seen to be trying. They didn't and still haven't.
... Then you gets the suspicious, paranoid folks like me who wonder why?
When they did it for the 2000 series release, but not for the 3000 series release - and still haven't introduced the limit... I have to wonder why?
I'm not drawing any conclusions; there is no data to draw conclusions from.
EDIT
partial answer to my question?
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/rtx-3080-qa/
Saw this today that says they will be releasing the 3080 20 GB and the 3070 16GB in December (at about 3:38 in the video)
When it comes to stock, GamersNexus took a lot of time to speak directly with many different vendors and AIBs, not just one or two. They are in constant contact with them. GN is reporting that stock for Ampere was about the same as Turing's launch. The issue really is the combination of demand and automated bots creating a perfect storm. GN has been extremely harsh on Nvidia for their launch in a lot of areas, in particular they ripped the 3090 hard (actually I felt they might have gone a bit too far as they did not even take a look at any non gaming benchmarks, something the 3090 is obviously suited for.) The point being, if GN felt in any way that the launch was understocked, they would have said so, they are not afraid to speak their mind. But their own research says differently, and they are not going to lie about their findings.
And Nvidia is only one seller. Most cards are sold through the 3rd parties.
Everything has been selling out fast. AMD's previous CPU launch earlier this year was out of stock super fast, too. Both the PS5 and new Xbox had problematic preorders, with many people unable to score one as they sold out in minutes. This is our new normal, folks. Look for the same to happen to AMD's launch on Nov 5, too.
I admit I underestimated that aspect. But I also think this period will be somewhat brief. Scalpers can only scalp so long before stock saturates the market. And with AMD hitting the market soon, the scalpers will likely move on to that launch. Plus I think that companies will begin to find ways to slow scalpers down. Even though at the end of the day a sale is a sale, they still want to get product into the hands of real customers. This becomes a public relations issue. If customers are frustrated they may go elsewhere.
I wish AMD would just come out with their specs instead of teasing. It feels silly at this point. While Nvidia may have been concerned about what AMD would counter with, Nvidia has already played its hand. There is no possible counter that Nvidia can do at this point, other than rush out the rumored extra VRAM cards or adjust prices. The 3090 is their absolute cap, there is no space between the 3080 and 3090 to launch a 3080ti. What AMD could do right now is hype up their cards and do major damage to Ampere while the striking is hot.
And boy, if Nvidia really does release the extra VRAM cards in December...I wonder how the people who bought from scalpers will feel, LOL. Don't buy from scalpers, people. You could buy a 2080ti now at a reduced price, and then buy a 3080 at a reasonable price later on...and still spend less than what you would on a scalped 3080.
I have zero sympathy for someone buying from scalpers.
Great!
Well, one of the reason I bought a MSI Radeon RX 570 8GB last December was I didn't see the point in paying scalper's prices for anything relatively new with an nVidia GPU until nVidia made a GPU that can do what I need and I can do without yearly upgrades just for the sake of bragging rights. So I still have to wait for these 30X0 nVidia video cards to be available first of all and at MSRP or cheaper; even though traditionally for big ticket items paying MSRP is definately considered paying too much.
If I'm buying a new item I'll be buying from an authorized vendor's store at MSRP. Anything I buy, for example, on Ebay will still qualify for some part of the original warranty and sell for less than MSRP. I skipped the 20xx series cards because I didn't like the pricing and I'm seriously considering a 3080 - but not from a scalper. I can hold off another six months easily.
My guess is, after they get burned by the scalper for the 3080, they'll go to another scalper for the 3080 with more RAM.
Gamers Meld is not exactly a reliable source.
Has anyone gotten realistic DAZ benches yet from the 3080 and 3090?