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On March 8, 2010 a member posted "What can I use DAZ Figures for legally?". The Daz help desk didn't mention 3d printing directly, which is not surprising given it had not been invented yet, but did respond with:
"You may:Create still images, animations, or any other rendered output in any format for any purpose. Once you’ve created an image or animation, you may use it however you like. This means you can sell, give away, use in projects at work, use in greeting cards, use in personal or client websites, use in illustrations, advertisements, use to create tangible replicas, etc.."
The language "use to create replicas" certainly makes the creation of 3d objects acceptable. The original helpdesk answer/post has been replaced with a link to the current UELA but a search of the forum provided the original answer. The point is there was a time that the UELA did not prohibit or even mention 3d, cnc or other methods of object creation and when quarried about such advised that whatever you created with their models was yours to use or sell as long as you didn't give or sell the information for creating the model itself. Many of the models I have purchased from DAZ were purchased under such versions of the UELA. My concern with those models is the license, at the time I purchased many models, didn't address the creation gifting or selling of 3d output but the company granting the license, DAZ3D, did acknowledge my right to.
I currently have a hundred or so models that I purchased but have not yet downloaded unavailable unless I agree to the new UELA. I am waiting to see how this unethical blocking of 3D printing to limit completion with DAZ's new 3D printing service shakes out before I agree to any new EULA. I sincerely hope they see the light and agree that art, in any form, created by artists using their models is the property of the artists as long as it doesn't compromise the base models digital information. I also hope they understand and honor the refund of the costs of the models I purchased but can't access without agreeing to the new UELA. Don't get me wrong I agree that they have a right to establish a UELA but would not have purchased the models if I was aware of the changes they made concerning 3d printing. I realize they latest UELA is less restrictive then the one just before it but it is still to restrictive of what I consider my right to use of products I purchased from them and wish they had demanded I read the UELA before allowing those purchases.
They sell models to artist to use to create art. The restriction of what an artist can do with the art he or she creates is mind boggling. The fact that it is, I suspect, based on preventing competition with a new service they have just started is at the least unethical.
Please DAZ re-examine this issue, return to your root business model of providing; the excellent content you are known for, the encouragement of art creation and renew the faith of your customers, many of whom have over the years spent a small fortune and kept you in business. The printing of 3d items using your models will add customers. Refusing to do so will cost you customers this is a no brainer.
the only users the EULA is hurting are those that want to capitalize on the money making aspect of 3D printing by using others work, namely DAZs. Seems I am one of the ones that can see how using DAZ assets and a quality 3d printer has a big monetary advantage and as such, can completely understand DAZs stance on the new EULA and not being able to use their content for my new commercial figurine business. The thing is, for those that truly want to do that, there is nothing stopping them from modeling their own models for their new 3D miniatures, but that would make things so much harder and eliminate the shortcut.
It's the same scenario as wannaba game developers using DAZ assets for their games rather than doing the work themselves, only DAZ has a license for that, which is likely to also come for the 3D printing aspect sooner than later.
Actually, the most common current form of 3D printing was developed in the early 80s and was being used commercially by 1990. By 2007 3D printers were fairly common in industry and just beginning to make their way into the hobbyist realm. As I recall, one of the Poser companies even ran a big promotion about having 3D prints made using their figures and software sometime in the 2008-2009 time period... I believe it was E-frontier before the Poser rights moved over to Smith-Micro.
In any case, lack of knowledge of 3D printing certainly wouldn't have been the reason for the omission of 3D printing from the EULA at that time.
the only users the EULA is hurting are those that want to capitalize on the money making aspect of 3D printing by using others work, namely DAZs. Seems I am one of the ones that can see how using DAZ assets and a quality 3d printer has a big monetary advantage and as such, can completely understand DAZs stance on the new EULA and not being able to use their content for my new commercial figurine business. The thing is, for those that truly want to do that, there is nothing stopping them from modeling their own models for their new 3D miniatures, but that would make things so much harder and eliminate the shortcut.
It's the same scenario as wannaba game developers using DAZ assets for their games rather than doing the work themselves, only DAZ has a license for that, which is likely to also come for the 3D printing aspect sooner than later.
I have no 3d printer. Being 63 years old and having been resuscitated twice I doubt I will live long enough to see the technology of 3d printing mature to the point of it being useful for anything other then hobbyists. I would like to use some of the models I purchased the rights to use in the creation of a grandfathers clock and four poster bed both of which I want to give to my daughter. I have access to a CNC router for rendering the wood items from the models. I also would like the option to make like objects for others as I have had a number of items I made from wood become popular locally. The current UELA prohibits doing the things I want to do even though the UELA in effect did not at the time I purchased the models which to me is an unfair taking. You are right to identify that greed is involved but are pointing the finger at the wrong people. DAZ and the others who created the models we all purchased were in the business of selling models to be used by others to create artistic content. The cost of the models was the compensation the creators of the models earned. The idea of restricting use of a model, after the fact, is what I have a concern with. The New UELA is certainly the right of DAZ but should only govern models purchased after its creation. I think their current course of action will cost them in the long run but it is still their right.
My daughter asked me to make a sword, from wood, to give a friend of hers at school as a Christmas gift. I created the sword out of a piece of scrap fir but it turned out nice enough to garner several requests for swords. Some of my daughters friends wanted swords with dragons on the handles or blades. A nice small cnc routed dragon would be fairly easy to produce from the DAZ dragon model but doing so is prohibited. I include an image of the sword as an example of what I would like to do but can't under the changed UELA.
I realize I could request some kind of exception for making a little 3d dragon model for use on a sword model but the idea of asking for permission to use something I purchased doesn't sit well. I also don't raise my hand and ask for permission to use the bathroom anymore either.
Also most model creators are only worried about their models being used in games if the games use the original digital models to create on the fly content. Most model makers and sellers allow their models to be used in games that contain completely rendered models since as per DAZ's older UELA the original model information is not accessible.
Actually, the most common current form of 3D printing was developed in the early 80s and was being used commercially by 1990. By 2007 3D printers were fairly common in industry and just beginning to make their way into the hobbyist realm. As I recall, one of the Poser companies even ran a big promotion about having 3D prints made using their figures and software sometime in the 2008-2009 time period... I believe it was E-frontier before the Poser rights moved over to Smith-Micro.
In any case, lack of knowledge of 3D printing certainly wouldn't have been the reason for the omission of 3D printing from the EULA at that time.
I stand corrected 3d printing was invented in 1984. That however still doesn't change the argument that in 2010 DAZ3D posted that creation of replicas was allowed use of DAZ models.
Here is an excerpt from the EULA which was in effect a decade ago, in 2004 (emphasis mine):
IANAL, but this seems to me to show that the restriction to two-dimensional images and the fact that all other rights are reserved to DAZ and the PA's has been explicitly stated for years and is not some new restriction.
IANAL, but this seems to me to show that the restriction to two-dimensional images and the fact that all other rights are reserved to DAZ and the PA's has been explicitly stated for years and is not some new restriction.
Actually that version of the UELA Is the one in effect when I purchased many models and specifically states I can make 3d objects from the models which would include 3d printed or CNC routed renderings. The language referring to 3d models only prohibits giving selling or distributing anything that would allow for the original model or a part of it to be extracted. The new UELA prohibits selling or giving 3d printed art creations which is a new restriction.
Actually that version of the UELA Is the one in effect when I purchased many models and specifically states I can make 3d objects from the models which would include 3d printed or CNC routed renderings. The language referring to 3d models only prohibits giving selling or distributing anything that would allow for the original model or a part of it to be extracted. The new UELA prohibits selling or giving 3d printed art creations which is a new restriction.
I'm not understanding where you're seeing that? It doesn't say you can make 3d objects. It says you cannot distribute 2d renderings if they would allow the content to be extracted (for example, if you slapped a texture file on a plane and rendered it.
What I take from that past version of the UELA is that you can sell anything you render as long as it does not allow any part of the original model to be extracted. The words are you may copy or sell any animation or rendering you make as long as it doesn't allow access to the original model. 3D printing or a cnc routed object are only different types of hardcopy/content of your renderings no different then printings of digital images. Any and all language in that older UELA that speaks of 3d is talking about the original model 3D content meaning the mesh and any other design features not output any artist derives from the original model. The language "you may copy, distribute, and/or sell your animations and renderings derived from the 3-D Model(s)" clearly states that you can sell what you render in 3d as long as it doesn't include or allow access to the original model information.
Thank you for posting the older UELA it is part of the basis of my concern. I thought I was going to have to find one of my old DAZ content CDs to get the language.
No, you can sell what you render as long as you respect the "foregoing limitations".
If you read the whole text you see that what you are quoting applies to the 2D images only:
You can make/sell 2D images, provided that these 2D images respect the limitations that are outlined.
Anyway, that is how I see it. It has never been allowed to make 3D prints. I find the new EULA better since it allows people to make 3D prints for personal use (for free) from what I gather. I haven't completely read the new one yet...
Well we can agree to disagree I guess. The UELA did spend the most language on 2d creations and how they couldn't include anything that transmitted the original model info but the sentence that I referenced in my last post came at the end and like most ending address things in general and not specifically 2d renderings. I believe that is accurate because the DAZ Helpdesk response to a march 8, 2010 question about what could legally done with DAZ figures was: “You may:Create still images, animations, or any other rendered output in any format for any purpose. Once you’ve created an image or animation, you may use it however you like. This means you can sell, give away, use in projects at work, use in greeting cards, use in personal or client websites, use in illustrations, advertisements, use to create tangible replicas, etc.”.
There really shouldn't be any concern from DAZ about 3d Printing or not. Anything created with DAZ models has to be changed drastically to be printable by any current 3D printers and after being so changed contains no information from the original model to be extracted so there is no danger of the original model content getting copied or stolen. Well unless you consider that DAZ just started offering 3d Printed figurines and they are trying to stifle competition which would be unethical. The issue that concerns me most though is the idea that any company can sell you something then later change the ability of you to use it. They should have to abide by the original UELA that was in effect when you made your purchases. Any changes in use should only apply to something purchased after the UELA changed.
So yes, you could create 3D replicas based on an image or animation. That didn't change.
3D printing uses the mesh as a base, not images or animations. So it wasn't covered by this sentence.
The first sentence "You may:Create still images, animations, or any other rendered output in any format for any purpose." pretty much says it all. This was posted by Stephen Teixeira the Software Quality Assurance director for DAZ3D at the time in a Helpdesk response.
Except that a physical 3D model or 3D print probably doesn't qualify as a "rendered output"....
Why not? It's "baked", you can't get back to a rigged, textured, detailed 3D model from it. It's a "thing", like a print, engraving, etc, not "data", like you need a game developer's license to incorporate in an AR app, game, etc.
It's not even a highly profitable or large market "thing", so it bears repeating that DAZ is generating large quantities of ill will in order to protect a revenue stream that is never, ever going to materialize.
Is anyone, aside from me, keeping track of what sorts of businesses are offering 3D prints in a "customer facing" manner? They're mostly traditional 2D art companies looking to expand their product offerings. All DAZ is doing is insuring that their artists are going to get blacklisted from those markets.
Actually the "in any format for any purpose" was what caught my eye.
But what this truly comes down to is what DAZ decides to do.
Will they honor past agreements?
Will they continue to be a respected content provider?
Will they stick with their past ideology that content created from the models they sell is the artist/creators property?
or...
Will they hinder the growth of a new industry and attempt to stifle competition because they have decided to add 3D printing?
My posts are meant to point out the slippery slope Daz is on and encourage them to do what I believe is the right thing. I believe past UELA's and a very clearly stated Helpdesk Q&A point to the right thing. That being the content created from the use of their models, as long as the original model information is protected, is the property of the artist creating the content and they have a right to create art "in any format for any purpose".
Now please DAZ fix this.
Fix it so I can CNC render a few little dragons to add to a grandfathers clock, some bed posts and perhaps a decorative sword replica or two.
Fix it so your wonderful models will be purchased by anyone wanting make 3d printed art whether for themselves, as you currently do, or for gifts or sale.
Fix it so someone somewhere will one day create an entire 3D scene using the models you sell.
Fix it so those of us that have purchased your fine models, for more then a decade, can continue to look to you as an industry leader and continue to buy models, whether new of old.
Some folks compared this to using the figures in games. WRONG! A 3D game would need an actual mesh to be included which might be copyable by some means. A 3D statuette is the same as a printed 2D picture, it only has the final result which is the artist's work and may in fact owe more to say RAW, or some other vendor of morphs and textures than to the original DAZ product. If they can block what we can print in three dimensions next they'll want a fee to print more than one copy of a simple picture on your inkjet and if you post it somewhere where others can print it from the web$$$$$$$
Dang, I hope I didn't give RAW any ideas;-)
Anyway only DAZ could say if it would have qualified for them at the time that version (or any similarly worded version) of the EULA was current.
But it doesn't change the fact that DAZ updated their EULA 2 years ago to explicitely forbid "creation of three-dimensional physical images" from their content unless you purchased a special licence from them (See here for a thread on that update).
The new version is actually less restrictive than the previous one since it now allows it for personal, non commercial use.
And with this I will drop the subject, as only DAZ can address it now. I doubt they will change anything to their current stance for now, but you never know...
As if they could have stopped "personal, not commercial use", or even known about it, lol.