Force Feeding G9

AllenArt

outrider42 said:

bluejaunte said:

There's one other angle. DAZ might not even accept the product if they think it won't sell. Every accepted product also means work for them. QA, marketing, after sales support etc.

We have seen so many very odd things sold in this store, things that are extremely niche and realistically have very low sales potential. Yet they are still sold in the store, perhaps because of how unique they are. We have numerous PAs who kind of specialize in weirdness, stuff that probably doesn't sell great, but it is the product they want to make and contains their passion. While they are not great sellers, they are still assets to show off how great and diverse a store can be to new customers. So even with few sales, a low volume product still can have value to a store by simply being there.

So I don't believe this as a very strong argument. I think products should be judged on quality before sales potential. And if it is a quality product, the QA is much easier. If you judge on quality, then the curation is done naturally and takes care of itself.

That quality is not always there. There have been numerous products with major issues in recent years. And we have also had threads from customers who have been frustrated by a lack of communication from support tickets, sometimes even going months without a response. Or in some cases getting a response that is basically throwing their hands up in the air with no resolution. I have had that happen before myself.

Believe it or not, there was a time when THIS store was the ONLY store that you knew anything you bought was going to work right out of the box. QA was strict and quality was the rule of the day. Now it's hurried thru and only the sales matter I guess as it's slipped to the same QC as the other stores (which is not a compliment...lol). Sometimes, I even think this place is worse, because the things I buy elsewhere are frequently error-free, while I've had some things here lately be boogered up in some way. 

Korpin.Sulat

Oso3D said:

Another way to look at it is money as votes.

If I make something that 100 people buy, that's 100 happy people.

If I make something that 10 people buy, that's 10 happy people.

 

Even if money doesn't concern you... you presumably want more people to enjoy your work.

 

Again, not the ONLY factor, but it's a factor. Popularity and/or income.

 

Yup, but more often than not, 100 sales versus ten sales is less down to the quality of it and more down to the price. The Wal-Mart mentality is strong in these sales. People want good, but they also want it at the lowest price possible so that in the end the PA gets a rate competitive with some kid making tee shirts in Bangladesh.

maikdecker

AlmightyQUEST said:

But "make exactly what the customer wants without variation" is a commision. Which you could do! But if you want someone to make exactly what you want to spec, it is going to cost more. Ikea isn't going to build me custom furniture to spec.

That's why IKEA offers quite a few products with the same design, but different materials and/or colours. Because they know that customers are all little snowflakes and want at least a few options to help with their decision process about "what to buy". That's probably also the reason why their stuff is "mass compatible" while furniture made by people with an artistic vision sells in design-shops in low numbers for high prices, and usually not because people want to use it, but only to own it and show off with it, because "it's a design by *insert famous designer's name here*", which is a status that no shop item here in DAZland will reach anytime soon. And "mass compatible" usually comes with the restriction of "has to appeal the masses' tastes and wishes". Which then closes the circle to craftman's design rules... make what they want, so it sells... 

Korpin.Sulat

Are you sure you want to hold up IKEA as the gold standard here? It's cheap, it's disposable, it's ubiquitous, it has no resale value, it can only withstand being assembled once before losing all durability, and its mass appeal makes them the single largest de-forester in the world, even overtaking construction. Their color choices bend to their whims, not yours. They make it compatible with THEIR palette in order to sell you more of their products, because it doesn't match anyone else's. You get the illusion of choice. You don't get good.

People can demand that Daz strip their PAs of all creative freedom when Daz buys their computers and software (Zbrush, Maya, Surface Painter, etc) subscriptions and pays them a salary. It's not a highly profitable craft no matter how you look at it, and toxic community standards do have an effect, especially on ones that live up to the highest standards.

maikdecker

marcus.ames said:

Are you sure you want to hold up IKEA as the gold standard here?

It was an example. And I answered to someone bringing IKEA into the thread. And funnylierwise I am quite happy with my IKEA products, which I bought about 20 years ago and still use after two moves into new flats, meanng they got set up/put together three times already. Probably depends more on what one is ready to spend, when durability is concerned?!? The massive pine stuff I bought looks like it will survive another 30 years easily...

People can demand that Daz strip their PAs of all creative freedom when Daz buys their computers and software (Zbrush, Maya, Surface Painter, etc) subscriptions and pays them a salary. It's not a highly profitable craft no matter how you look at it, and toxic community standards do have an effect, especially on ones that live up to the highest standards.

People can DEMAND anything they want. Doesn't mean that DAZ has to follow that demands. And PAs probably have to decide if it's artistic vision or selling stuff for a mass market is their way to go.

Not sure what you mean by "toxic community standards" though, and not sure if I want you to give more details about it.

Korpin.Sulat

Ugh, maybe cruddy choice of words. There's a lot of good stuff coming out right now, even if it's not good for everybody. It's not like we're a unified community. And some of the nitpicking, not even necessarily from you, sounds like that one guy who keeps rolling his/her eyes even though everyone's dancing and begs the DJ to "play something good," and then have no specific requests when asked. :) Other than that, my brain's tired, I have a headache, and dinner's ready. :)

bluejaunte

outrider42 said:

bluejaunte said:

There's one other angle. DAZ might not even accept the product if they think it won't sell. Every accepted product also means work for them. QA, marketing, after sales support etc.

We have seen so many very odd things sold in this store, things that are extremely niche and realistically have very low sales potential. Yet they are still sold in the store, perhaps because of how unique they are. We have numerous PAs who kind of specialize in weirdness, stuff that probably doesn't sell great, but it is the product they want to make and contains their passion. While they are not great sellers, they are still assets to show off how great and diverse a store can be to new customers. So even with few sales, a low volume product still can have value to a store by simply being there.

So I don't believe this as a very strong argument. I think products should be judged on quality before sales potential. And if it is a quality product, the QA is much easier. If you judge on quality, then the curation is done naturally and takes care of itself.

That quality is not always there. There have been numerous products with major issues in recent years. And we have also had threads from customers who have been frustrated by a lack of communication from support tickets, sometimes even going months without a response. Or in some cases getting a response that is basically throwing their hands up in the air with no resolution. I have had that happen before myself.

Absolutely, sometimes they're going for the diverse market place thing. It was not an argument against anything, just another angle. As in this can potentially happen when you submit niche products.

hjake

So the latest rumor is that Genesis X (final Genesis) will replicate Barbie and Ken. So that's cool.

 

https://nypost.com/2019/09/25/mattel-launches-gender-neutral-barbie-doll/

 

maikdecker

hjake said:

So the latest rumor is that Genesis X (final Genesis) will replicate Barbie and Ken. So that's cool.

https://nypost.com/2019/09/25/mattel-launches-gender-neutral-barbie-doll/

Alas, the rumor that they will also sell a set of nipples as an extra is just that... it's Mattel and not DAZland 

Philippi_Child

I've been around here a long time but under a different user name. I go all the way back to when Daz was known as Zygote. I've used every version of Victoria up to 8. As for DAZ Studio I've trusted every version with exception of 4.21 which I know is most likely to be silly. I'm just a plain hobbyist and don't want to fight the software I use. 
 

G9 will be like every other new model released. It will have growing pains and will evolve. I remember when V4M and V4 was all that and the hubbub when Genesis was released. Funny the same arguments about G9 was also heard about the first Genesis release. Content for G9 will come the figure hasn't been out long enough for PAs to really get cranking on it. The same complaints happened when G8 came out and it took time for PAs to create content.
 

As far as PAs are concerned I have favorites and as far as content I buy what I like or will use. In all the years I've been a Daz customer I've only returned 3 things.

I've held off G9 for three reasons one, I'm unsure my computer can handle DS 4.21. It's not an old machine, i7, 32 gigs ram, 650watt PSU and a GTX 1060 6gig which has served me well and still kicking. I don't create massive complex, resource heavy renders so maybe this will not be an issue.

Then there is the mesh density of G9 being high or maybe I'm misinformed about it. Finally content I know I I've posted early in this thread about not holding off G9 but as an earlier poster stated that one item can draw you and hook you.....well one has. So now I'm seriously considering a move to G9.

Lol, I remember a time when I said they'd have to pry poser out of my cold dead hands I refused to use DS. Now I can't imagine not using it. I'm just skiddish about going to 4.21. I still have my copy of 4.11 (use 4.12) and I know I can use the beta version of 4.21 I just know why I'm being so slow to do so. Forgive me for rambling but I think in time G9 will get some loving.
 

Oso3D

G9 mesh density is roughly twice that at base as G8.

Which is like... SubD 0.5.

It's a fairly insignificant impact on rendering speed, which is usually more about texture map density. And the layout of textures I THINK is less than G8.1, or at least pretty close.

(Geometry generally only becomes a problem if someone is for some reason trying to render a figure at SubD 5 or something, or if you are using a LOT of figures)

 

ioonrxoon

@Philippi_Child You don't need 4.21 to try G9, I'm still using 4.15 and except for the scripted make-ups, it works fine. As for the mesh, it makes very little impact, the only change from G8 is that it loads faster.

PerttiA

Oso3D said:

G9 mesh density is roughly twice that at base as G8.

Only for the extremities, arms, legs and head. Torso has only 10% increase and the poor topology makes it practically lower density than on G8/G8.1 in the areas that count. 

Oso3D

PerttiA said:

Oso3D said:

G9 mesh density is roughly twice that at base as G8.

Only for the extremities, arms, legs and head. Torso has only 10% increase and the poor topology makes it practically lower density than on G8/G8.1 in the areas that count. 

The concern was that the density was so high it might interfere with rendering. Your comments don't really relate to that.

Also, I disagree, but at this point the stances have been explained at length.

 

Wonderland

ioonrxoon said:

@Philippi_Child You don't need 4.21 to try G9, I'm still using 4.15 and except for the scripted make-ups, it works fine. As for the mesh, it makes very little impact, the only change from G8 is that it loads faster.

DS 4.15 always crashed for me with one G8 and hair. 4.21 hasn't crashed yet! Give it a try. 

FSMCDesigns

Wonderland said:

ioonrxoon said:

@Philippi_Child You don't need 4.21 to try G9, I'm still using 4.15 and except for the scripted make-ups, it works fine. As for the mesh, it makes very little impact, the only change from G8 is that it loads faster.

DS 4.15 always crashed for me with one G8 and hair. 4.21 hasn't crashed yet! Give it a try. 

It's funny hiow DS acts differently on different users machines. 4.15 has been rock solid for me and I am still running it along with the 4.21 beta

Gordig

FSMCDesigns said:

Wonderland said:

ioonrxoon said:

@Philippi_Child You don't need 4.21 to try G9, I'm still using 4.15 and except for the scripted make-ups, it works fine. As for the mesh, it makes very little impact, the only change from G8 is that it loads faster.

DS 4.15 always crashed for me with one G8 and hair. 4.21 hasn't crashed yet! Give it a try. 

It's funny hiow DS acts differently on different users machines. 4.15 has been rock solid for me and I am still running it along with the 4.21 beta

I don't notice the vast majority of problems that people report with DS, so I often wonder if I'm less discerning than other users or just extremely lucky. The only major bug I can remember is when the first version of a numbered release (maybe 4.16?) rendered Iray partially transparent.

Mattymanx

FSMCDesigns said:

Wonderland said:

ioonrxoon said:

@Philippi_Child You don't need 4.21 to try G9, I'm still using 4.15 and except for the scripted make-ups, it works fine. As for the mesh, it makes very little impact, the only change from G8 is that it loads faster.

DS 4.15 always crashed for me with one G8 and hair. 4.21 hasn't crashed yet! Give it a try. 

It's funny hiow DS acts differently on different users machines. 4.15 has been rock solid for me and I am still running it along with the 4.21 beta

 

I've been running 4.15 for a long time now and up until G9 came out I was making everything on it despite the newer versions.  But I have been using 4.21 more now.  There is a slight difference between the two when rendering in Iray. 

TBorNot

I'm dismayed that the muscles around the elbow on G9 are all wrong, even worse than on G8.  Not only do the forearm muscles not span the elbow like it should, now the biceps at the elbow is all wonky.  Sigh.

 

Blando Calrissian

I picked up my first Gen9 character bundle today. 

They got me.

Wonderland

Gordig said:

FSMCDesigns said:

Wonderland said:

ioonrxoon said:

@Philippi_Child You don't need 4.21 to try G9, I'm still using 4.15 and except for the scripted make-ups, it works fine. As for the mesh, it makes very little impact, the only change from G8 is that it loads faster.

DS 4.15 always crashed for me with one G8 and hair. 4.21 hasn't crashed yet! Give it a try. 

It's funny hiow DS acts differently on different users machines. 4.15 has been rock solid for me and I am still running it along with the 4.21 beta

I don't notice the vast majority of problems that people report with DS, so I often wonder if I'm less discerning than other users or just extremely lucky. The only major bug I can remember is when the first version of a numbered release (maybe 4.16?) rendered Iray partially transparent.

I literally couldn't use DS 4.15 for more than 5 minutes without crashing which was driving me crazy, stuck to DS 4.14 beta which was still usable and stable and freaked when 4.21 accidentally overwrote 4.15 and did something to my old beta to make it unusable, but relieved that so far I haven't had a single crash with 4.21. 

Philippi_Child

Well I still use 4.12 and never upgraded to a newer version. I've never had any issues with 4.12 so I'm not familiar with other version and som of the issues. I have 4.11 to fall back on in case I don't like 4.21 but I also hate to feel left behind either. Hated I said "I will never" and I've said this before and was surprised sort of like a kid that says they didn't like a certain food. So from what I've read from some of you I might just dive into 4.21. I mean I've read from other users with a lesser PC then mine using 4.21. A new figure for G9 was released this week that has lured me into using G9 LOL!

kyoto kid

Philippi_Child said:

I've been around here a long time but under a different user name. I go all the way back to when Daz was known as Zygote. I've used every version of Victoria up to 8. As for DAZ Studio I've trusted every version with exception of 4.21 which I know is most likely to be silly. I'm just a plain hobbyist and don't want to fight the software I use. 
 

G9 will be like every other new model released. It will have growing pains and will evolve. I remember when V4M and V4 was all that and the hubbub when Genesis was released. Funny the same arguments about G9 was also heard about the first Genesis release. Content for G9 will come the figure hasn't been out long enough for PAs to really get cranking on it. The same complaints happened when G8 came out and it took time for PAs to create content.
 

As far as PAs are concerned I have favorites and as far as content I buy what I like or will use. In all the years I've been a Daz customer I've only returned 3 things.

I've held off G9 for three reasons one, I'm unsure my computer can handle DS 4.21. It's not an old machine, i7, 32 gigs ram, 650watt PSU and a GTX 1060 6gig which has served me well and still kicking. I don't create massive complex, resource heavy renders so maybe this will not be an issue.

Then there is the mesh density of G9 being high or maybe I'm misinformed about it. Finally content I know I I've posted early in this thread about not holding off G9 but as an earlier poster stated that one item can draw you and hook you.....well one has. So now I'm seriously considering a move to G9.

Lol, I remember a time when I said they'd have to pry poser out of my cold dead hands I refused to use DS. Now I can't imagine not using it. I'm just skiddish about going to 4.21. I still have my copy of 4.11 (use 4.12) and I know I can use the beta version of 4.21 I just know why I'm being so slow to do so. Forgive me for rambling but I think in time G9 will get some loving.
 

...I'm currently running the 4.21.0.5 general  release on a system that is over a decade old with a Westemere architecture Xeon (released in March of 2010) and 24 GB of memory on an x58 P6T MB (PCIe 2.0) and it has been running fairly smoothly.  My GPU is one generation older - a Maxwell Titan-X.  Even still being on W7 Pro SP1 (which cuts me off from the latest 4.21 Beta as it requires an Nvidia driver update that no longer supports older versions of Windows) 

Alas I face having to move to W11 not just because of the situation with Daz but other software (like 3DS Indie and Painter 2022)  as well as I learned thaat Chrome will no longer support W7 after January (which also means no more "zero day" fixes for malware threats)

This also means teh added expense (about 1,160$ including a W11 OEM) of having to get a new MB (that is TPM-2), CPU (Ryzen 5900X), and, memory (which currently is DDR3).as well as a new CPU cooler that can handle a Ryzen 5900X.  Not pleased with having to adopt the "Windows as a Service" model, but sadly it's the only act in town.

kyoto kid

FSMCDesigns said:

Wonderland said:

ioonrxoon said:

@Philippi_Child You don't need 4.21 to try G9, I'm still using 4.15 and except for the scripted make-ups, it works fine. As for the mesh, it makes very little impact, the only change from G8 is that it loads faster.

DS 4.15 always crashed for me with one G8 and hair. 4.21 hasn't crashed yet! Give it a try. 

It's funny hiow DS acts differently on different users machines. 4.15 has been rock solid for me and I am still running it along with the 4.21 beta

...4.12, 4.14. 4.15, 4.16 and 4.21 have all been pretty stable for me on my "legacy" hardware system. .I am running a 4.16 beta and the general release of 4.21 concurrently.