►►► ....and, all links lead to the EULA!
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The problem is
1. I am NOT trying to make a purchase.
2. I am being blocked to my account illegally
(even if they they think not...it is illegal to FORCE an EULA when there is NO transaction taking place!
It is not LEGAL to tell me I have to agree to VOID my past agreements in order to access my account. Pretty simple, really...
I’m not going to fight about it anymore. I want to be able to get into my account by 5 pm tomorrow.
Just posted this in the tinier Carrara forum version of this thread, but it belongs here too...
I see two extremely quick and easy solutions to all this nonsense.
1) DAZ should simply STOP ALL access to previously purchased products. No more download resets for anybody, ever! Either that, or charge for an extended download service like SM does (or charge a fee for resetting downloads). DAZ never said in any legally binding agreement that you'd be able to download anything you buy at any time you like, it was just a store policy, and store policies are subject to change at the store owner's whim - no notice needed! If you need your old downloads reset, you should have kept the installers, or backed up your files. If you have not done this obvious thing, it's not DAZ's fault and you should do so now for everything you have on hand!
2) The best and easiest answer is to release The Millennium Cow!! EVERYONE HERE would agree to ANY EULA just to get that Cow in their Runtimes!! I know. I personally spoke to everyone who ever bought anything at DAZ, and without exception they all agreed. Yes, that may have just been a dream - but dreams are still real to me, and therefore they count as a legally binding contract!
There are more solutions, like put the EULA on the download reset buttons so people can still get their currently available downloads and have access to their accounts without agreeing to something they are uncomfortable with, and DAZ can still stop any new downloads if the agreement is not accepted - but that would be too easy and sensible for a place like this...
Yay!
Why would we want to stay with the old one for older products? Because that is a legally binding agreement, and we have already agreed to it. The fact that you want us to let you change the agreement retroactively backwards is suspicious and dangerous. I remember a certain very popular movie and villain:
"I have altered our agreement...pray that I do not alter it further!"
This is setting a precedent...and that is something that lawyers also should understand.
Dana
But it's changed in our favour ... that wasn't the case with the fictitious villain.
This time. How many other changes, some to "agreements", have changed not to our favor? PC club anyone? New site?
Dana
This dream I can share :) Power to Millennium Cow!
As for the first option, I don't really want to store to become this way :-/ Selfish, I know, but I'm so used to unlimited downloads of DAZ3D, I can't stand other sites more limited policies.
I am wondering why digital people get so much leeway.....
If I tried to change terms of a contract like this in the construction world, it would end me up in court in a snap. Either the home owner or builder outright refusing to pay, or them sueing my ass.
Indeed. I would be happy to accept the current EULA, retroactive bit and all, if they weren't attempting to coerce me into it.
1) DAZ should simply STOP ALL access to previously purchased products. No more download resets for anybody, ever! Either that, or charge for an extended download service like SM does (or charge a fee for resetting downloads). DAZ never said in any legally binding agreement that you'd be able to download anything you buy at any time you like, it was just a store policy, and store policies are subject to change at the store owner's whim - no notice needed! If you need your old downloads reset, you should have kept the installers, or backed up your files. If you have not done this obvious thing, it's not DAZ's fault and you should do so now for everything you have on hand!
Emphasis mine, some content snipped.
This is entirely true. However, DAZ did warrant that we would be able to use the content. Denying us access to it without giving us a chance to download it qualifies us for a refund. And blocking us from the ability to use our store credit unless we change a previous agreement qualifies us for a refund for that as well. They're not delivering the service that was paid for.
I'm willing to let them wreck their store policies any way they want. It's their business. I'm simply stating, here and now, I want either a change to the EULA so it's not retroactive, or a refund on my store credit and items to be named which I was unable to download or anticipate being unable to use. I've paid. They haven't delivered. And they're being dead silent. If this issue is not addressed in some way within 24 hours, I'll report them to the BBB and check my other options.
The problem is
1. I am NOT trying to make a purchase.
2. I am being blocked to my account illegally
(even if they they think not...it is illegal to FORCE an EULA when there is NO transaction taking place!
It is not LEGAL to tell me I have to agree to VOID my past agreements in order to access my account. Pretty simple, really...
I'm not going to fight about it anymore. I want to be able to get into my account by 5 pm tomorrow.
Its not illegal. DAZ never guaranteed your downloads would be available forever... they only guarantee a download at the time of purchase. In fact, none of the brokerages do. It is up to the end user to do backups accordingly. If you want access to that particular feature, you have to accept the EULA.
Its not illegal. DAZ never guaranteed your downloads would be available forever... they only guarantee a download at the time of purchase. In fact, none of the brokerages do. It is up to the end user to do backups accordingly. If you want access to that particular feature, you have to accept the EULA.
Yes, but you see....they ARE still available....to EVERYONE... they have NOT stopped that policy.... they have just ILLEGALLY blocked me from my account by trying to put an agreement in the way of my accessing my acount without giving me an opportunity to opt out.
Trust me....that is illegal. I don't really want to have to prove it.
Yes, they guaranteed a download at the time of purchase, and that the product would be satisfactory for 30 days [that's what the live EULA at the help desk said when I made my purchases; that's the guarantee I bought them under]. I wasn't allowed to finish downloading them. Blocking me from getting them entitles me to a refund.
Even more so goes for store credit. It is indeed quite illegal to block access to my property for the purpose of forcing me to alter a previous legally binding agreement.
Refunds on these things would let them get off scot free. Refusing completely to address the issue, however, leaves me with my hands tied as far as working with them over it goes. It's terrible customer service and terrible business practice. I'm really hoping this will be resolved and I won't have to request refunds. If they actually responded, whether I was pleased with it or not, I'd even ask for said refunds amicably - it's their business to wreck.
But if they choose to ignore the issue any further, I'll do my level best to make sure they're rendered unable to.
Sorry I have been out most of the day as my Mother-In-Law is in the hospital (and will be gone this evening and part of tomorrow just so you all know) but wanted to come in so you know you aren't being ignored and to try to explain a few things a bit better :)
I understand some of you are frustrated and we are terribly sorry. This was not done in order to make anyone unhappy. DAZ3D has been slowly changing content into zip format, as such, there will be no "please click here to accept the EULA". So in order to download ANYTHING you will need to agree to the new EULA just as you would have to agree to the EULA if you were to use the previous installers upon installing, whether it be a new install or reinstall. Doing it this way, you only need to "agree" once and it will apply to every download from here on out.
While we understand that you wish to acess only your old content, since all content is switching to zips, all downloads will require accepting the EULA, whether you bought it in the past or not. If you have the old installers, you may continue to use them under the old EULA but redownloading them in the zip format will apply the new EULA.
For those worried the new EULA is taking things away, there were in honestly very little changes to the original wording except in regards to 3D Printing. As it was not even addressed in the previous EULA directly, it was disallowed. The new EULA allows for it with a specific liscense. Other then that, the wording in other sections was elaborated but they original interpretation and intent haven't changed since the previous EULA so agreeing isn't taking anything away and is only adding in the 3D Printing. Agreeing to it to access your downloads is necessary though as they will be coming in zip format and customers complained as it was that they hated (and this includes me LOL) clicking over and over that you agree.
Yes, they guaranteed a download at the time of purchase, and that the product would be satisfactory for 30 days [that's what the live EULA at the help desk said when I made my purchases; that's the guarantee I bought them under]. I wasn't allowed to finish downloading them. Blocking me from getting them entitles me to a refund.
Even more so goes for store credit. It is indeed quite illegal to block access to my property for the purpose of forcing me to alter a previous legally binding agreement.
Refunds on these things would let them get off scot free. Refusing completely to address the issue, however, leaves me with my hands tied as far as working with them over it goes. It's terrible customer service and terrible business practice. I'm really hoping this will be resolved and I won't have to request refunds. If they actually responded, whether I was pleased with it or not, I'd even ask for said refunds amicably - it's their business to wreck.
But if they choose to ignore the issue any further, I'll do my level best to make sure they're rendered unable to.Hey wait... didn't you just get a refund? http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/243309/
Did you ask for a refund?
Its not illegal. DAZ never guaranteed your downloads would be available forever... they only guarantee a download at the time of purchase. In fact, none of the brokerages do. It is up to the end user to do backups accordingly. If you want access to that particular feature, you have to accept the EULA.
Yes, but you see....they ARE still available....to EVERYONE... they have NOT stopped that policy.... they have just ILLEGALLY blocked me from my account by trying to put an agreement in the way of my accessing my acount without giving me an opportunity to opt out.
Trust me....that is illegal. I don't really want to have to prove it.
It doesn't matter if its still available. Its not a policy at all - nowhere does it say that DAZ will enable downloads for everyone, forever - it only guarantees an initial download at time of purchase. And that's precisely why its not illegal to put the kibosh on prior downloads til someone accepts an amended or even first version EULA. Its also not illegal to change the EULA and make people have to accept it, either. Companies can change policy at any time, without notice even.
You have a choice, here, as you would any company that amended a policy. You can accept it, or not. And there is nothing in that EULA that would work against people. I'm not even really sure why there is so much animosity in this thread, as the amended EULA gives customers more capabilities, denotes that if you're going to use the stuff for 3D printing you will need another license for that particular capability. But other than that, there is nothing there to be up in arms about.
For a sale glitch, and I'm very grateful for Britney and Ann's help on it. :)
That was a separate issue though. I didn't actually ask for a refund on my store credit or any potentially unusable items yet, as I'm trying to give DAZ a chance to respond to this.
Did you ask for a refund?
Nope. I'm trying to handle this in a level-headed manner by allowing DAZ the chance to respond. Still holding on to the idea that they're only 'accidentally' holding my property hostage and refusing to respond to comments I make on the issue.
Also I found out how to access my downloads even if I can't reset them, so the inability to access purchased content won't be an issue for me much longer, it'll be the recently bought plugins I expect to break, and the store credit.
If 3D printing wasn't addressed in the old EULA, does it necessarily follow that under the old EULA it is disallowed because DAZ says so long after the agreement was made? I'm asking because I don't know how this works.
Anyway, apart from this minor niggle I'm fine with the current situation. Thank you DAZ_ann for the clarification and summary :) As for the issue with blocked access to downloads, I don't see a problem unless purchases were made prior to the new EULA and within the seven or thirty days. It seems pretty clear to me that the time of purchase should determine what terms are in effect, and that those terms should be presented before transactions are finalized. The old system always was back-asswards, but hardly anyone cares about the EULAs so whatever, right?
REPOST since the thread is going so fast (that said it has been a terribly long day so I will be heading out):
Sorry I have been out most of the day as my Mother-In-Law is in the hospital (and will be gone this evening and part of tomorrow just so you all know) but wanted to come in so you know you aren't being ignored and to try to explain a few things a bit better :)
I understand some of you are frustrated and we are terribly sorry. This was not done in order to make anyone unhappy. DAZ3D has been slowly changing content into zip format, as such, there will be no "please click here to accept the EULA". So in order to download ANYTHING you will need to agree to the new EULA just as you would have to agree to the EULA if you were to use the previous installers upon installing, whether it be a new install or reinstall. Doing it this way, you only need to "agree" once and it will apply to every download from here on out.
While we understand that you wish to acess only your old content, since all content is switching to zips, all downloads will require accepting the EULA, whether you bought it in the past or not. If you have the old installers, you may continue to use them under the old EULA but redownloading them in the zip format will apply the new EULA.
For those worried the new EULA is taking things away, there were in honestly very little changes to the original wording except in regards to 3D Printing. As it was not even addressed in the previous EULA directly, it was disallowed. The new EULA allows for it with a specific liscense. Other then that, the wording in other sections was elaborated but they original interpretation and intent haven't changed since the previous EULA so agreeing isn't taking anything away and is only adding in the 3D Printing. Agreeing to it to access your downloads is necessary though as they will be coming in zip format and customers complained as it was that they hated (and this includes me LOL) clicking over and over that you agree.
Well, yes, companies do that all the time. Steam did that to me once - blocked my entire game library until I accepted new EULA. I don't buy from Steam that much anymore after that. I certainly don't buy from it any valuable games.
But I do sort of see the point too. If there was no clause in previous EULA that downloads will stay on and available indefinitely DAZ3D can't be oblige to provide them all the time unchanged.
Besides, AFAIR people didn't want to accept EULA due to stupid "destroy your content" clause because in combination with blocked account it gave new EULA really bad smell. Now when this part is removed, I wonder what prevents the acceptance. I don't see anything dangerous in this new EULA worth to be worried about.
If 3D printing wasn't addressed in the old EULA, does it necessarily follow that it is disallowed because DAZ says so long after the agreement was made? I'm asking because I don't know how this works.
Anyway, apart from this minor niggle I'm fine with the current situation. Thank you DAZ_ann for the clarification and summary :) As for the issue with blocked access to downloads, I don't see a problem unless purchases were made prior to the new EULA and within the seven or thirty days. It seems pretty clear to me that the time of purchase should determine what terms are in effect, and that those terms should be presented before transactions are finalized. The old system always was back-asswards, but hardly anyone cares about the EULAs so whatever, right?
Usually when something isn't implicitly expressed as "allowed" you should ask and assume it means it isn't. Reason being no company can think of or come up with every specific scenario. For instance if I say you may not reproduce the item in whole or in part...(which I believe is in the old EULA) technically a 3D Scan thingy would be a reproduction so it was part of that "dis-allowance" but not explicitly said as at the time the EULA was made, that didn't even exist. Since then though they have discussed it specifically and decided how they wanted to handle it (I hope that makes sense...it's been a wicked long day and I am terribly brain dead LOL I could be an extra in that new Warm Bodies Movie me thinks LOL)
ADDED: Of note, I guess the old EULA also says: "no other rights are granted than what is delineated" which would also cover anything not included as being not allowed unless told different directly by DAZ3D at some point.
Yes, on this particular end, I could totally agree. That was probably a little heavy. But, they have to protect the copyrights of their vendors (hence the 3D printing clause - I believe it has more to do with copyright than anything) And the only way they could guarantee past downloads would be protected the same, was to add that. At least, that is what I am guessing.
Actually the whole Panic of DAZ is because of that 3D printing .... the old Eula did not prohibit to create any 3 D printing before and that is already possible to do since 4 years so they actually where aware of the facts or should of been , It means that every purchased Item up to date is free also to create tenable Objects !!!
before 3D Printing was available we used CNC witch also can be used to construct from a digital Item.
So even if you would sign the Eula it will not affect previous purchases it you where creating a 3D Print And Daz would not be able to gain any Profit on these whether Taxes nor other claims.
with an only exception with an agreement with costumers to fully refund each and every Purchase made up to date .
In short terms ... Because 3D Printing is already Longer existent and also already before Poser existed Tenable reproduction
certainly was possible , the Eula did not restrict this kind of usage the products can be used as such.
Yes, but you see....they ARE still available....to EVERYONE... they have NOT stopped that policy.... they have just ILLEGALLY blocked me from my account by trying to put an agreement in the way of my accessing my acount without giving me an opportunity to opt out.
Trust me....that is illegal. I don't really want to have to prove it.
It doesn't matter if its still available. Its not a policy at all - nowhere does it say that DAZ will enable downloads for everyone, forever - it only guarantees an initial download at time of purchase. And that's precisely why its not illegal to put the kibosh on prior downloads til someone accepts an amended or even first version EULA. Its also not illegal to change the EULA and make people have to accept it, either. Companies can change policy at any time, without notice even.
You have a choice, here, as you would any company that amended a policy. You can accept it, or not. And there is nothing in that EULA that would work against people. I'm not even really sure why there is so much animosity in this thread, as the amended EULA gives customers more capabilities, denotes that if you're going to use the stuff for 3D printing you will need another license for that particular capability. But other than that, there is nothing there to be up in arms about.
See...that's what you do not seem to be understanding...
I'm NOT being given a choice.
I didn't even read the EULA. I have NO idea what it says...what it said... or what's been changed or how it affects anything. My issue is NOT with the changes to the EULA.
I don't care about the EULA. That's not the point.
...and to be honest, I've made my point clearly enough, for as many times as I am going to...
I really hope there can be a resolution to this, but for now, I think I have said all I am going to. I want to be able to access my account by tomorrow evening.
Thanks, again.
Jaz
What? O_o
So wait, let me get it straight. You against the change because it is a change while you doesn't even know what sort of change is that? O_o
Why? The product itself is what the EULA covers, not the method of delivery or packaging.
We are concerned about this practice of changing past agreements that were legally binding at the time they were entered into. Do it once, probably do it again...and maybe next time it will not be so nice for us. It's a bad precedent. New EULA should be for new items going forward from the date of the new EULA, not retroactive on all products. It's the principle, not the contents of the agreement.
Dana
If you don't care about it, then just accept it and be done.
But... I feel a little nervous about anyone who wouldn't bother to read what the EULA says about owning my content. Coz honestly, it doesn't just protect DAZ, but Vendors as well.
"Usually when something isn’t implicitly expressed as “allowed” you should ask and assume it means it isn’t."
I don't that will stand up in a court of law.
Why? The product itself is what the EULA covers, not the method of delivery or packaging.
We are concerned about this practice of changing past agreements that were legally binding at the time they were entered into. Do it once, probably do it again...and maybe next time it will not be so nice for us. It's a bad precedent. New EULA should be for new items going forward from the date of the new EULA, not retroactive on all products. It's the principle, not the contents of the agreement.
Dana
Because the installer will not allow you to install the content without agreeing to the EULA, while a zip will. If you still have the previous installer and do not redownload, then you can run the installer and accept the old EULA.
If you don't care about it, then just accept it and be done.
But... I feel a little nervous about anyone who wouldn't bother to read what the EULA says about owning my content. Coz honestly, it doesn't just protect DAZ, but Vendors as well.
CLARIFICATION: I know what the EULA says for products I have already purchased. I was referring to the new one that others are/were unhappy about... I didn't read it.
whatever changes that are made to it is NOT the issue I am having.
MY ISSUE IS:
I can not access my account.
If you don't care about it, then just accept it and be done.
I agree. If you really don't care and didn't even read new EULA, just click it and download your content. It will change nothing from your point of view.
Sure it will, esp if it comes down to copyright. I own the copyrights on all my clothing designs. If someone decided to do something with those particular designs (and it doesn't matter in what medium) without explicit and prior permission from me (whereas not exempted in a EULA, specifically) I could take them to court and sue.