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dForce Hair (as well as strand based hair and the strand based hair editor) in public beta

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  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679
    Male-M3dia said:
    AllenArt said:

    Hmm..the makers of Poser didn't seem to have the same hangups about who used their tech (and they didn't have a booming content business either). B

    1) SM bought their hair solution from a 3rd party that they incorporated into a program that they sell to their customers. With that fee, when was the last time they've updated the toolset?

    I think we're talking about two different things. A hard fact of life is that companies need to make money to stay in business....and keeping some tech inhouse helps achieves that goal instead of a one-time sale that goes elsewhere but doesn't generate money to keep updates going for the base program.

    Look, I've given Daz plenty of money. Daz Studio may be "free", but I PAID for this development with my many purchases made here. So I am not having any of this "Daz gave us this new feature for free and that should be good enough" talk. I could have bought 3DS Max and Zbrush several times over with the money I spent here. I don't like being denied to use the features of the software that I PAID for. There is no defense for how anti consumer this move is. People would still buy dforce hair HERE, because the best PAs are here, and Daz is the biggest store for Daz content by far.

    Now public users must depend purely on what the PAs give them. Oh...you want dforce hair in X style...well lets just hope a PA makes it that way for you! Otherwise...too bad!

    With the HD morphs, at least there were ways around that. But there is no real alternative here. The only alternative is to create strand hair with inferior dforce cloth. Daz has always stated that dforce cloth was not intended for hair, and it shows. Most dforce hair is crazy slow to simulate, even with a 1080ti. The Dforce Classic Long Hair takes longer to simulate that it does to render! Plus it is hard to control how it falls...it is based on cloth after all. So using dforce cloth on hair is FAR from ideal and this practice is just plain dirty.

    So I am not sure if I will be buying any of this dforce hair. I apologize to the PAs who have made them, it certainly is not their fault.
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,597

    maybe if they made if for all the old millenium animals and V4,M4 and genesis 1 creatures etc.....but I seriously doubt it

    as I said its not the denial of technology but the limiting of what we can buy

  • PadonePadone Posts: 3,796
    edited June 2019

    DAZ Studio is more a platform for people who want to play with pre-made content.

    If you enjoy content creation and/or customization there are better options. You can always export assets to blender and do custom characters there. This way you also get superior rendering and animation features.

    Post edited by Padone on
  • DisparateDreamerDisparateDreamer Posts: 2,514

    Btw Daz team, thanks for continuing to innovate and improve Daz Studio and making it open so people can create plugins for it ... its abilities and potential keep getting better and better! And for all the PAs who make content and support the program and all the users... thank you as well for the ongoing contributions, hard work, continued learning and expansion. When I first started using DS I never thought we'd finally have hair and liquid simulation and fabric draping... now there's more and more options. <3

  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 5,961

    Some people may appreciate what does develops for D/S and some may not and complain about what is or isn't given to them with the program. That will always happen no matter what. But in the end it will boils down to the same arguments all over again and simply get this thread locked, and I for one have been enjoying following this thread and seeing the progress everyone is making with dforce hair.

    Personal opinions are not going to change daz's mind on anything, they put alot of research behind their development and have alot of discussion on what gets released. To them there is alot more involved than personal opinion. They have to do what is reasonable for them to keep in business. So opinions on things like this will only get the tread locked, and that would be a shame.

  • Faeryl WomynFaeryl Womyn Posts: 3,663

    Ok so don't need to start a thread asking questions, just got my answer...lol  We don't get to create the hair, only get to play with it, kinda like when Opitex came out with the dynamic clothes.  We will see if I by any depending on prices and sales, cause money is an issue all the time with me.

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 8,484
    Faeryl Womyn said:

    Ok so don't need to start a thread asking questions, just got my answer...lol  We don't get to create the hair, only get to play with it, kinda like when Opitex came out with the dynamic clothes.  We will see if I by any depending on prices and sales, cause money is an issue all the time with me.

    No you can create hair fur etc just not dforce it.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,597
    RawArt said:

    Some people may appreciate what does develops for D/S and some may not and complain about what is or isn't given to them with the program. That will always happen no matter what. But in the end it will boils down to the same arguments all over again and simply get this thread locked, and I for one have been enjoying following this thread and seeing the progress everyone is making with dforce hair.

    Personal opinions are not going to change daz's mind on anything, they put alot of research behind their development and have alot of discussion on what gets released. To them there is alot more involved than personal opinion. They have to do what is reasonable for them to keep in business. So opinions on things like this will only get the tread locked, and that would be a shame.

    Not whining really 

    just got mildly excited initially that DAZ studio was getting more features to woo me from Carrara

    but

    nothing to see here cheeky

    I have access to perfectly nice dynamic hair in my preferred software already heart

  • Blood-PawWerewolfBlood-PawWerewolf Posts: 325

    it’s highly possible that DAZ is wanting their users to become PAs. and that’s not really a bad thing since they want their users to become successful in making 3d content.

     

    question is, do you need to sell items as a PA or is it just a higher level of a typical DAZ user?

  • PsyckosamaPsyckosama Posts: 495
    edited June 2019
    Blood-PawWerewolf said:
    Psyckosama said:
    PA's make them money. That's how it works.

    first was locking down HD morphs, then DAZ Connect DRM, and then encrypting scripts, and now further locking down new tools to only ones that work for DAZ....

    sounds very pro-corporate, anti-consumer practices to me...

    Very. This is nonsense.

    At this point I honestly long for a paid version that is actually feature complete...

    Post edited by Psyckosama on
  • Blood-PawWerewolfBlood-PawWerewolf Posts: 325
    Psyckosama said:
    Blood-PawWerewolf said:
    Psyckosama said:
    PA's make them money. That's how it works.

    first was locking down HD morphs, then DAZ Connect DRM, and then encrypting scripts, and now further locking down new tools to only ones that work for DAZ....

    sounds very pro-corporate, anti-consumer practices to me...

    Very, not that this line of conversation is going to go anywhere. They tend to delete all critisism of the company.

    Yet the consumer has the right to complain about things that they deem unacceptable. I can understand locking had morphs down, but a hair creating tool? I can picture a ton of people using it to make their renders look beautiful!

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,792
    nonesuch00 said:

    DAZ bought their strand hair from a 3rd party as well.

    Given my experience with clothing dForce products and hw glacially slow it simulates, when it doesn't 'explode' or 'crash' DS outright, I won't be buying any dForce hair either. 

    Daz bought (and developed) Garibaldi as a strand-based editor for use in DS. Daz developed the dForce hair, which can be created without using the strand-based hair editor - by exporting suitable geometry from ZBrush, for example.

  • Blood-PawWerewolfBlood-PawWerewolf Posts: 325
    Richard Haseltine said:
    nonesuch00 said:

    DAZ bought their strand hair from a 3rd party as well.

    Given my experience with clothing dForce products and hw glacially slow it simulates, when it doesn't 'explode' or 'crash' DS outright, I won't be buying any dForce hair either. 

    Daz bought (and developed) Garibaldi as a strand-based editor for use in DS. Daz developed the dForce hair, which can be created without using the strand-based hair editor - by exporting suitable geometry from ZBrush, for example.

    Ah, so we’ve been looking at this incorrectly then...

  • wteeningwteening Posts: 89
    Richard Haseltine said:
    nonesuch00 said:

    DAZ bought their strand hair from a 3rd party as well.

    Given my experience with clothing dForce products and hw glacially slow it simulates, when it doesn't 'explode' or 'crash' DS outright, I won't be buying any dForce hair either. 

    Daz bought (and developed) Garibaldi as a strand-based editor for use in DS. Daz developed the dForce hair, which can be created without using the strand-based hair editor - by exporting suitable geometry from ZBrush, for example.

    You've got our undivided attention! yes
    What does suitable geometry entail? Can we import Fibermesh hair using GoZ?
    Please let us know if we should start a separate thread for this.

  • PsyckosamaPsyckosama Posts: 495
    Blood-PawWerewolf said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    nonesuch00 said:

    DAZ bought their strand hair from a 3rd party as well.

    Given my experience with clothing dForce products and hw glacially slow it simulates, when it doesn't 'explode' or 'crash' DS outright, I won't be buying any dForce hair either. 

    Daz bought (and developed) Garibaldi as a strand-based editor for use in DS. Daz developed the dForce hair, which can be created without using the strand-based hair editor - by exporting suitable geometry from ZBrush, for example.

    Ah, so we’ve been looking at this incorrectly then...

    Not really Dforce Hair and Dforce cloth work differently.

     

     

  • MendomanMendoman Posts: 404
    edited June 2019

    Oh bummer, I planned to play with alot with dForce hair after final release. I suppose I should have paid more attention when they announced dForce hair that it's PA only. Hmmm, or maybe Daz could have been more informative in their opening post too to be honest...Oh well, strand hair is a nice improvement, but still kinda left sour taste in mouth no

    Post edited by Mendoman on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,792
    wteening said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    nonesuch00 said:

    DAZ bought their strand hair from a 3rd party as well.

    Given my experience with clothing dForce products and hw glacially slow it simulates, when it doesn't 'explode' or 'crash' DS outright, I won't be buying any dForce hair either. 

    Daz bought (and developed) Garibaldi as a strand-based editor for use in DS. Daz developed the dForce hair, which can be created without using the strand-based hair editor - by exporting suitable geometry from ZBrush, for example.

    You've got our undivided attention! yes
    What does suitable geometry entail? Can we import Fibermesh hair using GoZ?
    Please let us know if we should start a separate thread for this.

    I didn't mean that's a way to do dForce hair - I meant that the Strand Based hair Editor is neither necessary nor sufficient for dForce hair; it's just a tool that can be used to make the raw model (though many PAs will have other, possibly superior, tools) and a tool that the rest of us can use to create non-dynamic strand hair (well, the rest of you - I'm a klutz)..

  • Blood-PawWerewolfBlood-PawWerewolf Posts: 325
    Richard Haseltine said:
    wteening said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    nonesuch00 said:

    DAZ bought their strand hair from a 3rd party as well.

    Given my experience with clothing dForce products and hw glacially slow it simulates, when it doesn't 'explode' or 'crash' DS outright, I won't be buying any dForce hair either. 

    Daz bought (and developed) Garibaldi as a strand-based editor for use in DS. Daz developed the dForce hair, which can be created without using the strand-based hair editor - by exporting suitable geometry from ZBrush, for example.

    You've got our undivided attention! yes
    What does suitable geometry entail? Can we import Fibermesh hair using GoZ?
    Please let us know if we should start a separate thread for this.

    I didn't mean that's a way to do dForce hair - I meant that the Strand Based hair Editor is neither necessary nor sufficient for dForce hair; it's just a tool that can be used to make the raw model (though many PAs will have other, possibly superior, tools) and a tool that the rest of us can use to create non-dynamic strand hair (well, the rest of you - I'm a klutz)..

    Aren’t the tools for creating dforce clothing also only for PAs?

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 15,225

    Sorry, gang.  I'm coming into this conversation on page 26.  Is there an issue brief to sum up, rather than reading 26 pages?

    - Is "DForce Hair" merely a mesh model rigged and conformed to a figure like any other classic clothing/hair product, but also able to use DForce without choking a typical user's machine, or intersecting/colliding in undesirable ways?

    - Or, is DForce hair something more special than that?

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,955
    Blood-PawWerewolf said:

    Aren’t the tools for creating dforce clothing also only for PAs?

    No.  If it was, you would only see dForce clothing sold at Daz3D.

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 8,484
    Blood-PawWerewolf said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    wteening said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    nonesuch00 said:

    DAZ bought their strand hair from a 3rd party as well.

    Given my experience with clothing dForce products and hw glacially slow it simulates, when it doesn't 'explode' or 'crash' DS outright, I won't be buying any dForce hair either. 

    Daz bought (and developed) Garibaldi as a strand-based editor for use in DS. Daz developed the dForce hair, which can be created without using the strand-based hair editor - by exporting suitable geometry from ZBrush, for example.

    You've got our undivided attention! yes
    What does suitable geometry entail? Can we import Fibermesh hair using GoZ?
    Please let us know if we should start a separate thread for this.

    I didn't mean that's a way to do dForce hair - I meant that the Strand Based hair Editor is neither necessary nor sufficient for dForce hair; it's just a tool that can be used to make the raw model (though many PAs will have other, possibly superior, tools) and a tool that the rest of us can use to create non-dynamic strand hair (well, the rest of you - I'm a klutz)..

    Aren’t the tools for creating dforce clothing also only for PAs?

    No, the ability to turn anything dynamic is inside DS and can be applied to anything.

  • Blood-PawWerewolfBlood-PawWerewolf Posts: 325
    scorpio said:
    Blood-PawWerewolf said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    wteening said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    nonesuch00 said:

    DAZ bought their strand hair from a 3rd party as well.

    Given my experience with clothing dForce products and hw glacially slow it simulates, when it doesn't 'explode' or 'crash' DS outright, I won't be buying any dForce hair either. 

    Daz bought (and developed) Garibaldi as a strand-based editor for use in DS. Daz developed the dForce hair, which can be created without using the strand-based hair editor - by exporting suitable geometry from ZBrush, for example.

    You've got our undivided attention! yes
    What does suitable geometry entail? Can we import Fibermesh hair using GoZ?
    Please let us know if we should start a separate thread for this.

    I didn't mean that's a way to do dForce hair - I meant that the Strand Based hair Editor is neither necessary nor sufficient for dForce hair; it's just a tool that can be used to make the raw model (though many PAs will have other, possibly superior, tools) and a tool that the rest of us can use to create non-dynamic strand hair (well, the rest of you - I'm a klutz)..

    Aren’t the tools for creating dforce clothing also only for PAs?

    No, the ability to turn anything dynamic is inside DS and can be applied to anything.

    And that should include hair, correct?

  • AllenArtAllenArt Posts: 7,172
    Diomede_Carrara said:

    Sorry, gang.  I'm coming into this conversation on page 26.  Is there an issue brief to sum up, rather than reading 26 pages?

    - Is "DForce Hair" merely a mesh model rigged and conformed to a figure like any other classic clothing/hair product, but also able to use DForce without choking a typical user's machine, or intersecting/colliding in undesirable ways?

    - Or, is DForce hair something more special than that?

    There are two kinds of strand based hair in DS now - static strand based hair that us mere mortals can use and dforce hair that only those in the club can use (meaning Daz vendors). You can make your own static strand based hair, but you can't dforce it. Only vendors can make strand hair that "dforces".

    Laurie

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,597

    I suspect it is actually curves

    which Garibaldi produces as well as Zbrush and incidentally Carrara! and a few other programs including Poser Blender, Maya etc!

    the conversion to geometry happens after the simulation at the time of render rather like the LAMH catalyser 

    Philemo’s plugin does this with Carrara hair curves converts to mesh you choose the thickness of generated mesh and if two or 3sided likewise Hair Converter does it to Poser hr obj exports which are just vertex lines with no faces otherwise Zbrush too you get those options converting curves to geometry hitting accept in the  modifier , you can export as curves too, those vertex lines would simulate much faster than solid mesh with faces as I know with Carrara and of course Poser.

  • AllenArtAllenArt Posts: 7,172
    outrider42 said:
    Male-M3dia said:
    AllenArt said:

    Hmm..the makers of Poser didn't seem to have the same hangups about who used their tech (and they didn't have a booming content business either). B

    1) SM bought their hair solution from a 3rd party that they incorporated into a program that they sell to their customers. With that fee, when was the last time they've updated the toolset?

    I think we're talking about two different things. A hard fact of life is that companies need to make money to stay in business....and keeping some tech inhouse helps achieves that goal instead of a one-time sale that goes elsewhere but doesn't generate money to keep updates going for the base program.

     

    Look, I've given Daz plenty of money. Daz Studio may be "free", but I PAID for this development with my many purchases made here. So I am not having any of this "Daz gave us this new feature for free and that should be good enough" talk. I could have bought 3DS Max and Zbrush several times over with the money I spent here. I don't like being denied to use the features of the software that I PAID for. There is no defense for how anti consumer this move is. People would still buy dforce hair HERE, because the best PAs are here, and Daz is the biggest store for Daz content by far.

     

    Now public users must depend purely on what the PAs give them. Oh...you want dforce hair in X style...well lets just hope a PA makes it that way for you! Otherwise...too bad!

     

    With the HD morphs, at least there were ways around that. But there is no real alternative here. The only alternative is to create strand hair with inferior dforce cloth. Daz has always stated that dforce cloth was not intended for hair, and it shows. Most dforce hair is crazy slow to simulate, even with a 1080ti. The Dforce Classic Long Hair takes longer to simulate that it does to render! Plus it is hard to control how it falls...it is based on cloth after all. So using dforce cloth on hair is FAR from ideal and this practice is just plain dirty.

     

    So I am not sure if I will be buying any of this dforce hair. I apologize to the PAs who have made them, it certainly is not their fault.

    Couldn't have said it better myself. I've spent enough to buy a car here over the years. I spend over 200 a month most months. I don't feel at all guilty for my opinion of this little "move". I've paid for it.

    Laurie

  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 15,225
    AllenArt said:
    Diomede_Carrara said:

    Sorry, gang.  I'm coming into this conversation on page 26.  Is there an issue brief to sum up, rather than reading 26 pages?

    - Is "DForce Hair" merely a mesh model rigged and conformed to a figure like any other classic clothing/hair product, but also able to use DForce without choking a typical user's machine, or intersecting/colliding in undesirable ways?

    - Or, is DForce hair something more special than that?

    There are two kinds of strand based hair in DS now - static strand based hair that us mere mortals can use and dforce hair that only those in the club can use (meaning Daz vendors). You can make your own static strand based hair, but you can't dforce it. Only vendors can make strand hair that "dforces".

    Laurie

     

    Thank you. yes

     

  • jimmyzpopjimmyzpop Posts: 118
    Leonides02 said:
    wteening said:
    So the toolset is actively kept away from end users? That doesn't sound very customer friendly. I'd have happily paid for a tool that would allow me to create my own dForce hair, but now I have to hope PAs will release the types of hair I need. Very disappointing.

    yes

  • wteeningwteening Posts: 89
    Richard Haseltine said:
    wteening said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    nonesuch00 said:

    DAZ bought their strand hair from a 3rd party as well.

    Given my experience with clothing dForce products and hw glacially slow it simulates, when it doesn't 'explode' or 'crash' DS outright, I won't be buying any dForce hair either. 

    Daz bought (and developed) Garibaldi as a strand-based editor for use in DS. Daz developed the dForce hair, which can be created without using the strand-based hair editor - by exporting suitable geometry from ZBrush, for example.

    You've got our undivided attention! yes
    What does suitable geometry entail? Can we import Fibermesh hair using GoZ?
    Please let us know if we should start a separate thread for this.

    I didn't mean that's a way to do dForce hair - I meant that the Strand Based hair Editor is neither necessary nor sufficient for dForce hair; it's just a tool that can be used to make the raw model (though many PAs will have other, possibly superior, tools) and a tool that the rest of us can use to create non-dynamic strand hair (well, the rest of you - I'm a klutz)..

    Is it possible for non-PAs to create dForce hair, or does it require tools only available to PAs?
  • Blood-PawWerewolfBlood-PawWerewolf Posts: 325
    wteening said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    wteening said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    nonesuch00 said:

    DAZ bought their strand hair from a 3rd party as well.

    Given my experience with clothing dForce products and hw glacially slow it simulates, when it doesn't 'explode' or 'crash' DS outright, I won't be buying any dForce hair either. 

    Daz bought (and developed) Garibaldi as a strand-based editor for use in DS. Daz developed the dForce hair, which can be created without using the strand-based hair editor - by exporting suitable geometry from ZBrush, for example.

    You've got our undivided attention! yes
    What does suitable geometry entail? Can we import Fibermesh hair using GoZ?
    Please let us know if we should start a separate thread for this.

    I didn't mean that's a way to do dForce hair - I meant that the Strand Based hair Editor is neither necessary nor sufficient for dForce hair; it's just a tool that can be used to make the raw model (though many PAs will have other, possibly superior, tools) and a tool that the rest of us can use to create non-dynamic strand hair (well, the rest of you - I'm a klutz)..

     

    Is it possible for non-PAs to create dForce hair, or does it require tools only available to PAs?

    According to what everyone is saying, nope.

     

    Become a PA or nothing

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,045

    People paid for a project they were totally unaware was going on?

    We all spent money here, and if Daz hadn’t developed dynamic hair we still would have spent the same money.

    It was Daz’ choice to take the money they’ve earned and reinvest it into development, rather than keeping it as company profit.

    I’m not saying we should feel sorry for them or anything, it’s prudent business, but ‘we paid for this’ is only sorta true at best.

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