Figure Chaos
cosmo71
Posts: 3,609
Hello DAZ and happy new year.
I want to know why DAZ throws figure by figure (generation by generation) on the market and for each figure (generation) just a view products instead of concentrate on only one figure (generation) and make this great with lots and lots of products? Is there any reason for such customer-hostile behaviour?
genesis, genesis 2 female, genesis 2 male, victoria 5, michel 5, victoria 6, gia 6, olympia 6, genesis 2 female HD, genesis 2 male HD and so on and on and on.
HELLO DAZ this is not good and inovative, this is customer-hostile even because one need much of converters and stuff to use skin textures, clothes and stuff that do not work 100% right.
CONCENTRATE YOURSELF ON ONE GENERATION (FIGURE) and not on tons so vendors can produce more stuff for this generation (figure) and we customers do not get confused on what to choose and what to buy especally because we don`t know what will work in the future and what is a dead end.
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Comments
The only actual figures you mention are Genesis, Genesis 2 Male and Genesis 2 Female. So that's three. I don't find it particularly confusing. Everything else is morphs for said figures. Just like it has always been. The only thing that gets a bit overwhelming at times if the UV chaos that comes with each now shape.
Generation 4 had 3 base mesh figures: V4, M4 and K4.
Genesis had one main base mesh: Genesis.
Genesis 2 currently has 2 main base mesh figures: Genesis 2 Female(s) and Genesis 2 Males(s).
All other Gen 4 like Hiro and Aiko were morph sets of the base mesh figures.
Anything to do with Genesis was a morph of Gensis, whether it be a male, female, child or creature. Same for the Generation 5 like V5, M5, H5.
All Genesis 2 female and males like V6, M6, Gia, and Olympia are morph sets of either the G2F or (when DAZ gets to them) G2M.
The biggest issues between Genesis and the Genesis 2 lines are textures. Genesis had a default UV of V4. Genesis 2 Female has a default of V5 and the necessity of a .duf file rather than the older .dsa. Genesis 2 Male defaults to the M5 UV and, again, requires a .duf file.
There are products that allow you to use your Gen 4 textures on the Genesis 2 models as well as product that can create the needed .duf files for both.
Yes, why does DAZ keep on producing figures utilising new technologies and more advanced features than their predecessors?
They should instead keep on developing to outdated standards.
Genesis 3 is coming out next week, and that will render everything you purchased already completely obsolete
Please keep your doors open and your computer logged in, so that the loyal DAZ Troopers can enter unimpeded and remove any traces of the old figures.
Some people still use Posette, as well as Gen 2,3 and 4:- http://www.posetteforever.com/ - and they don't find it confusing
Some people even deliberately add completely different third-part figures.
One DS and Poser both have legacy capability. You can use your older figures in them just as easily as the newer one. Poser still had the original Poser man as part of it's legacy content.
DAZ has developed newer technology. The break comes between Generation 4 and Genesis. All figure prior to Genesis used the Poser legacy rigging created some twenty years ago. It uses fall off zones rather than weight maps. I was innovative in it's day but not so much anymore.
Genesis and above use weight mapping rather than fall off zones like many of the higher end apps. DAZ does have it's own Triax weight mapping which is proprietary but that's not uncommon. Poser 9 and up also has weight mapped figures but it is a more "generic" type of weight mapping.
Genesis has only one base mesh figure. Everything else is a morph. Genesis 2 has two base meshes. Everything else is a morph.
About the only thing I don't like is that every new morph set comes with it's own UV set. Generation 1 DAZ figures had two UV sets: Vicki's and Mike's. Stephanie was made from Mike's mesh and used Mike's uv's. It did requires special textures to avoid issues in areas like the breasts.
Gen 3 began the unimesh idea. While all Gen 3 figures (except the Gen 3 baby) could use the Gen 3 textures out of the box, there were differences when using a female texture on a male and vice versa. However it could be done. AFAIK, D3 and SP3 were also made from the same mesh as you could swap morphs between them. I'm not sure about the others.
Everything DAZ has done over the years is to improve their technology. Morph inj/rem, ExP, the system Genesis uses that side steps all the morph channel issues (sorry I don't remember what it's called) and now the HD morphs.
In the end, no matter how hard they tried, the wouldn't have been able to keep Victoria the Millennium Woman the same figure.
Surely you are jesting???
Surely you are jesting???
Very much so!
Very much so!
Wait...he did say 'next week'...not soon. So...maybe sometime before next Christmas?
I agree, things are getting a little outrageous figure wise. It almost seems like they are going the way of electronics, you know, ya buy the latest, fastest, electronic technology and sadly only a week or so passes and they come out with something faster and supposedly better. Sure with some work and extra investment on your part you can work with the new programs and games that come out but why is it this way with 3d figures?
If Genesis was not completely "it", then why release the figure only to push it in the back for two new figures not long after, which lose the one thing that made Genesis unique and instead only updated two of the older figures to make them prettier?
to be honest Genesis was an exciting idea, though it was a pain to get started. And maybe an updated version of the Gen 4 characters was a great idea but what happened in the midst of everything?
Somewhere the idea got lost and turned into a big headache in the long run.
Yes indeed update the gen 4 characters, but don't make them along with a long list of requirements just to be able transfer all of your invested money from the older to the newer. Honestly paying for the figures, the morphs, and then the ability to transfer things over from Gen 4 is a little frustrating when Gen 4 was your product in the first place. It wasn't like the figures were from another company.
Then Genesis came about, okay, one figure that can become anything. Now that is a novel idea! With the great sales that Daz is gracious enough to give I bought everything to make my Genesis figure work only to see that many new items in the store are not for Genesis at all but these new figures. These two separate male and female figures who of course are not compatible with Genesis right out of the box, and who need even more software just to transfer over. More money and headache.
Yes M6 is gorgeous, and I will be getting him, but why is he based on a completely new figure? And what in the heck happened to Genesis?
It kind of makes me leery about buying into M6 now, who knows if Michael 7 is going to come out in a few months. And since nothing seems to be compatible without extra purchases to make it so, what is the point?
And because I know it is inevitable, no I am not bashing Daz or it's products. But as a longtime customer who has spent my money here I am just letting off a little steam and some concerns.
I'm not really confused so much as struggling to keep up. It seems like the pace of development and release is stuck in high gear, with new figures/characters coming out daily. Honestly, give us some time to actually use the stuff we buy, and give our wallets a rest every now and then.
Use what you're comfortable with. The new stuff will still be here when you come back to it, just like Generations 1 -3 are still there for those using them.
I understand this angst - I felt some of it right after G2F came out, and back when G1 came out as well. But it's really not necessary. Stuff doesn't "go away" from the DAZ store until it's really, really not selling, and all of it goes on sale very regularly.
My only real gripe is with the one-off UV's of David 5 and Freak 5. They didn't come out that long ago, but their UV's aren't compatible with G2M, though M5's uv is. It makes me very leery of any other new figures that come out based off G2M or G2F, like Olympia and whatnot.
That is not 100% correct, sorry but you can`t use poser figures in ds4 and up like you were able to do in ds3. I have problems and other people have also problems with lost deltas when using more than character for one figure.
second thing clothes. Sure there is a converter for clothes but the problem is, that converted clothes fit to the figure like a second skin so far I have tried it, means if you use for example an under breast morph for g2f the clothes even it is a normal shirt follows this morph and make the clothe not look correct.
skin texture converter works also not well in some body regions because of the different meshes so instead of creating a lot of textures for only one figure (maybe to male and female) they do some for genesis, some for genesis 2 female, some for genesis 2 male, some special for v5 or v6 and so on and if you want to use favorite skin textures of your good and old v4 characters you also have this problems with the converter if you want to use g2f or g2m so that is what I really don`t like because it seems that most of these new textures look not...good at all in my opinion.
THIS I TOTALLY AGREE WITH AND WOULD SIGN IT
That is not 100% correct, sorry but you can`t use poser figures in ds4 and up like you were able to do in ds3. I have problems and other people have also problems with lost deltas when using more than character for one figure.
While theer have been issues, most of them can be traced back to problems or non-standard behaviours in the content which DS4 shows up - models that rely on Poser unwelding parts, and so have car doors joined to the body for example, or in ealier versions invalid group names in the OBJ (they've improved that since). You have, I know, had trouble with items using the community channels (though I think that has been addressed now) and with the WWG figure which seemed to be doing something non-standard and I can understand your frustration, but in most cases it is the way a few specific items are set up.
BTW I also do not want to bash DAZ, I really like the software and over all my v4/m4 characters and a lot of great products made for DAZ and I like these forums as you can see at my thread and the lots of renders I have uploaded and DAZ knows it because of the amount of money I have spend :) but some criticism must be allowed.
That is not 100% correct, sorry but you can`t use poser figures in ds4 and up like you were able to do in ds3. I have problems and other people have also problems with lost deltas when using more than character for one figure.
DAZ Studio 4 can read and use any Poser Format content that DAZ Studio 3 could. DAZ Studio 4 may be a bit less forgiving than DAZ Studio 3 when it comes to content bugs, but if the content was set up properly then if it works in Studio 3 it will work in Studio 4 without exception.
One thing to keep in mind is that we are a business. We make our money by selling content. If we don't sell content we don't make money and we go out of business.
One of the ways to stay a head in a competitive market is to be innovative. We've done our best to provide ways to use the previous generation's content on the next generation. We can't just rest on our laurels and expect to stay in business. Obviously the best way for clothing/textures to work is on the figure that they are designed for, but Auto-fit and multiple UV's still work fairly well.
The truth is we are going to continue to release the best content possible. That doesn't mean we will come out with a new generation of figure every month, so you can rest your mind at ease.
Nobody is forcing you to purchase any of the new figures (though we'd love it if you did, we think they are great and that they speak for themselves). No one is going to uninstall the content you already have on your system. So if you'd like to continue to use Genesis that is fine, there are plenty who do. However, Genesis 2 male and female are better figures hands down. So if you want the improvements that they provide you may need to switch. Like many people have already stated, that doesn't make Genesis obsolete. It still has plenty of uses and is still a great figure IMO. If it wasn't a great figure then we wouldn't have released it.
DAZ Studio 4 can read and use any Poser Format content that DAZ Studio 3 could. DAZ Studio 4 may be a bit less forgiving than DAZ Studio 3 when it comes to content bugs, but if the content was set up properly then if it works in Studio 3 it will work in Studio 4 without exception.
One thing to keep in mind is that we are a business. We make our money by selling content. If we don't sell content we don't make money and we go out of business.
One of the ways to stay a head in a competitive market is to be innovative. We've done our best to provide ways to use the previous generation's content on the next generation. We can't just rest on our laurels and expect to stay in business. Obviously the best way for clothing/textures to work is on the figure that they are designed for, but Auto-fit and multiple UV's still work fairly well.
The truth is we are going to continue to release the best content possible. That doesn't mean we will come out with a new generation of figure every month, so you can rest your mind at ease.
Nobody is forcing you to purchase any of the new figures (though we'd love it if you did, we think they are great and that they speak for themselves). No one is going to uninstall the content you already have on your system. So if you'd like to continue to use Genesis that is fine, there are plenty who do. However, Genesis 2 male and female are better figures hands down. So if you want the improvements that they provide you may need to switch. Like many people have already stated, that doesn't make Genesis obsolete. It still has plenty of uses and is still a great figure IMO. If it wasn't a great figure then we wouldn't have released it.
well there are some people having problems with lost deltas after saving their characters as scenes and create new scenes with new characters and save them. it is a known problem so don`t say that everything is fine.
and if it comes to support on this specific issue it allways ends up with "sorry, but we don`t have that figure so we can`t test it"
I use the wwg2 for v4.2 with manuel injected morphs base, morphs++ and elite
and that (lost deltas) never happend with ds3 but with ds4 and up.
Don`t get me wrong I like ds4.6 and work with it but not everything is okay.
And sure you do business and you must make money, that is clear and no problem with it but if I look at renderosity for example and how much products get released everyday for v4.2 for example I do not know why DAZ would make no money with new products for v4.2 for example? 3D-Age for example one of the best clothes vendors for modern v4 clothes, with much inovation for additional morphs is my favorite vendor if it comes to clothes so if DAZ would have such vendor (what they never had) DAZ would make money, now it is renderosity getting my money.
The same counts on add on textures for clothes available at renderosity
The same counts on hair and hair textures.
The same counts on poses (tons and tons for v4 and m4 and there will be more and more everyday.
The same counts on boots and shoes and what ever else you want for v4 so if you do business you should think about it.
I have spend more money for v4 and m4 stuff at renderosity than I ever have at DAZ and I do it until today and I mean not just a view Dollars so you should ask yourself if you do your business right.
I would guess that renderosity has much more stuff for v4Im4 than DAZ
Products at Renderosity bring in a fraction of what they bring in at DAZ. I'm not saying they're not a worthwhile marketplace. There are some great artists there, including some from whom I buy everything they release as it comes out. I've always been satisfied with their testing, and they've always treated me well, especially considering I don't work with the figures they prefer. But income will never be a motivation for a DAZ artist to do what is done at Renderosity.
Products at Renderosity bring in a fraction of what they bring in at DAZ. I'm not saying they're not a worthwhile marketplace. There are some great artists there, including some from whom I buy everything they release as it comes out. I've always been satisfied with their testing, and they've always treated me well, especially considering I don't work with the figures they prefer. But income will never be a motivation for a DAZ artist to do what is done at Renderosity.
well some posts before some of DAZ has written that they do business and I just mentioned the mass of products for v4 and m4 that is still growing and also very good products like the clothes by 3D-Age. So if DAZ do business and they throw out new figures just a after they have created a new figure sothey can make money I just have asked why not offer new stuff for v4 and m4? If one thing of the business that DAZ do is to make money then I can`t understand that.
BTW Sickle Yield, I have some products made by you and I have not bought them here at DAZ but at renderosity because these clothes I have are not available at DAZ.
Yup. I still sell there. Never said I didn't. ;)
You can consider your concern noted. However, we feel that our current business strategy is a sound one. Thank you for your input though.
Like I said before, we will continue to release new characters.
As for sorting through the "chaos" hopefully there will be something real soon that will help simplify things. A sort of guide that lets you know what content will work with which figure. I can't say too much about it though.