MOCAP translator- What do you think? - Any coders around?
SasquatchIsCool
Posts: 251
DAZ is a very great program to make awesome looking models but the ability to take in MOCAP...like ROKOKO, XSENs, etc leaves much to be desired. You need to do workarounds and jump through hoops.
I'm trying to see if anyone out there would like a program, plugin, extension or what have you that will remap DAZ 3 and 8 characters to MOCAP brought in by various systems. Would there be a big demand?
If so would you like to work with a coder or developer? Are you a developer? Would anyone like to work together to pay a developer to bring a tool like this to DAZ so that we could take advantage of the mocap solutions that are now coming out?
Sound off if you are a developer, if you want a product like this or you want to work together with a developer to make an almost 1 button solution to get DAZ to work with actual mocap without all the weird workarounds.
I'm sure many of you would love to make movies and DAZ can make it possible if we can streamline it for spee. Let me know in the comments below and together we can make it happen IF it is something ya'll would want to see. ;)
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Comments
DS alreasdy imports BVH. Are there MOCAP programs that don't export that?
It's the mapping that's the issue, especially with g8's bones. There is already some mapping functionality built into BVH I/O in DS, but it's basically just a lookup table. Any additional logic would need to be applied outside of the actual import.
I'm also not sure that a general tool would be the way to go - something specific to the capture device/technology being used would seem to make more sense. What are you using to capture the data?
- Greg
I guess you don't want to try Wendy's easy workaround in your other thread.
No I'm going to use it. :) While easy I think there should be a better way....but till then Wendy's grade A workaround is the jam. Wendy's fix is time consuming though. It works..but time consuming...especially if you have 50 characters.
There is a lot of work around you have to do to get it to work...which really slows down production unneccessarily. I don't think we should have to have a workaround. It should just work at this point.
I have posted an FBX as an example.
Some of the workarounds have you exporting the character as an OBJ, taking it into Mixamo to Rig, coming back into Daz, baking the motion and then applying it to DAZ 8 VS import BVH or FBX and apply to figure.
I saw some programmers do one for Mixamo motions but like I said...that is all canned motions and not performance. I actually want to have characters talking and acting vs doing ninja flips the whole time and I don't want to work around the whole time...so wondering if we can find developers to work on this and make a plugin that we could all chip in for and they can sell i ton the DAZ store if they want.
https://www.laylo3d.com/product/mixamojo-for-daz-studio-g3-g8-bundle/
Autodesk doesn't charge $1400 per year because it's just a matter of importing a BVH and mapping bones.
The idea is to create a function that estimates the error between the actor actuation points, and the actuation points constrained by the user skeleton. This error function will depend on all the use skeleton's joint rotations. The retargeter uses a mathematical optimization algortithm to find the set of joint rotations that minimizes the error function, giving the pose that most closely matches the actor skeleton, even though the number, hierarchy, and length of the bones may all be different, and additional constraints can be specified (for pinning). A popular choice of optimization algo is Levenberg–Marquardt, and there is a Russian team that already did all the hard work of debugging and optimizing their library and offer it at the very reasonable cost of $500.
The problem, as always, it that I couldn't figure out something as simple as how G8 bones and JCJ work. This is a great example of yet another cool thing we would have, for free, if the documentation were good.
How much are you paying? Looking at both ends, and with only a limited idea of what you are calling workarounds, you're looking at around 250 man/hours. At $125US per man/hour...
Doesnt 125$ per hour sound a bit steep? Aren't you talking about a coder, or are you suggesting more than one person?
I'm not as familiar with the coding aspect. But I've seen folks write scripts and add ons to DAZ. I know back in the day Poser used Python scripting to do these things. I mean would it really be that difficult in way of coding?
I'm old school & just hand keyframe the stuff i need if there is no motion presets available, it saves time and i make exactly what i need at the time i need it..lol
Don't you love making animations with daz Studio? I think its fun like a puzzle I have tons of daz animations
click to play. best viewed in 1080HD. try not to smile :)
There's actually a lot to do. The coder has to learn the BVH, or other MOCAP, file format figure out how to convert that into aniblock data, which neccessarily entails learning that format, then, since you want a plugin, learning all the details of hooking it into DS. Once that is all done then the code can be written.
So figure at least 2 weeks just learning all the stuff, 2 to 3 weeks coding and testing and then a week or so of QA.
the reason stuff doesn't exist is largely because there is not a lot of money to be made in the DAZ community
on the otherhand the gaming and cinematography community there is
Unreal Engine etc is where you are more likely to be able to do what you want and DAZ needs a bridge to that not the other way around
What? No PDF? No video tutorial? And...never leave me...
In my experience, I don't kmow many gamers/wannabe developers that would be willing to shell out money for mesh content like the customers do here at DAZ
I do agree about not using DS for animation purposes though. For years i wanted to try my hand at animation, but i wanted to use IRAY and couldn't even imagine trying to get anything done in a rreasonable amount of time. Then I found VR and game engines and real time rendering. So I agree when it comes to animations, you are better off using a game engine instead of DS.
I did this short clip in 5 minutes just now in real time. G2, BVH mocap, Unity and VR
https://mega.nz/file/814XBKCL#hoBJjbwepFRtz8xk-23hcEiMOf7ZAfFfhitAik-GT5I
If you just want a guy to write some Java Script for a website, maybe, but if you want, say, a realtime embedded software engineer to control the laser you're going to point into someone's eye, then no, that is suspiciously inexpensive. There's great range in applications' requirements, so there's great range in the qualifications of the people required to implement those applications.
There's really not much to do at all.
BVH is dead simple, simpler than both OBJ and MDD. The mocap system will write out BVH as well. Aniblock is completely unnecessary to get a BVH onto a character. A plugin itself is not a challenge, and at least that SDK sample compiles and runs.
The Levenberg Marquart optimizer is Open Source, and the closed cource version is reasonably priced to distribute as part of an application, so even the real heavy-lifting, the math, is already done.
There are only two hard parts:
Whenever my Autodesk Developer Network fees come due, I get angry and threaten to go back and try again, but it would just be really nice if Daz would just document it.
After Reading this thread and having used daz studio for animation for such a long time. All I can say is wow I never knew so many of you "animators" depended on motion presets like mo-caps. Like i said I am old school most character animators are. even Disney/Pixar animators have to hand keyframe animation.
If you depend on Motion-capture and preset sets all the time to make dancing girlie animations, you will never learn how to create your own character animations presets that do not exist.
Daz Studio is not a easy software to learn for animation. its a posing tool. So unless you have made up your mind that you don't need mocaps or aniblocks all the time to make animations with Daz studio, then maybe Blender would be a better option for some of you "animators."
So that is why I do not understand is if so many other different software talked about here is so much better than daz studio for animation , then why do you guys not just stick with what works for you instead of torturing yourself trying to use a software that does not fit the needs you want it to do. That is kind of silly Daz studio does not make Disney type animations. But in case you have not noticed neither does iclone.
Character Animation & Gaming animation are 2 different types of animations not the same type bird at all. or either is it created the same . if you want gaming animation then you need to stay away from daz studio and go with a game engine like cryengine or Unreal 4 . torturing yourself trying to use mocaps not made for a software your trying to use it in, is way more work than its worth for a dancing girlie animation. But that's my 2 cents ..
The one thing i would love to see is you "animators" post some of your work so we can all enjoy it. I watch Wendy's animations all the time they are a lot of fun to watch. and some other people here do post animation once in a while. But if you can't make animations with daz studio with out mocaps then maybe iclone pipeline would be much better use for your time and money.
But if you have to depend on mocaps for everything to make a simple animated fiilm than I can see your complaint trying to make animations with Daz Studio
edited to fix some spelling. I am very dyslexic sorry
Then have it at hoss. I'm just basing my statement on decades of projects.
I am about to ask you: could you please post some sample data, you are getting from your MOCAP suit, to be able to experiment with it.
In the other thread, you have said, that it very easy for you to jump in the suit and record MOCAP.
I don't consider myself an animator, although I would like to be one day. For me, it's not about using presets vs keyframe, it's the painfully slow rendering process that has kept me from exploring the animation tools in DS more.
Hi Michael
I have render times mastered pretty well in daz studio depending on how many characters are in the scene i can generally get bout 12 seconds a keyframe with Iray with just a 1080 ti gpu, Lots of Pre-work production though reducing textures. & removing normal maps etc.
It also it helps to have a excellent organized folder work flow.
But seriously in this pond hopper animation I was getting 12 seconds a scene hand keyframed with Fog props and volume light panes and all..lol
Click to play animation . best viewed in 1080HD
None of which were a retargeting tool for Daz Studio, though, right?
I am basing my statement on having written the majority of a... retargeting tool for Daz Studio.
It's not about "dependency" or trying to win the mantle of "animator" by someone else's standard, it's about using the best tool for the job made available by current technology.
Case in point: With two Perception Neuron Studios, or even Pros, (given actors) I think you could have captured that cool Karate Girl episode in its entirety in an afternoon. All at the cost of providing catering and credit. You were remarking about the low number of productions you can complete in a year...
Cleaned up with Maya or Motionbuilder, the contact points would be perfect, no jerky transitions between canned animations, no foot sliding, and with something as good as a PN Studio, all the movements would be hyper realistic, retaining even the smallest nuance necessary for communicating the character's emotional state that "animators" work so hard to create.
And it's been widely discussed already the strange incongruency that is Daz Studio: The best character creation tool available anywhere at any price, and probably the worst animation tools to make them shine. That's why you have so many Blender users wanting to use Daz Studio characters in a worthy environment: Daz Characters and assets are th best quality, even before considering value. Full stop.
You asked if there would be any demand for such a plugin so I would suggest you consider the variables
Bringing in and retargeting Mocap directly from capture rigs will create keyframes for every frame and as Daz studio only supports BVH the retargeted Data would be very difficult to edit after import just as it is with the custom mocap I bring in from Iclone pro pipeline via its 3Dxchange program.
There are known documented "issues" with the latest Daz studio build not retaining animation Data in saved and re-opened scenes which would have to be considered for bug testing any animation plugin .
Consider that such a plugin would have to perform the same function as $$Autodesk Motionbuilder$$ or $$Iclone pro pipeline$$ thus it would be a very expensive/complex undertaking for a programmer and it is doubtful that it would be a cheap commercial solution considering that the $$Iphone$$ based facial MOCAP plugin"Face mojo" reportedly costs $200 USD.
which brings us to the matter of the cost of buying one of the Major mocap suits plus the cost of this theoretical plugin that needs to be functional equivalent to Autodesk MOBU or Iclone pro.
Now consider that BVH Does NOT Create Foot floor contact solving so any imported Data will likely have some foot slide requiring you to manually animate the strength of the Daz studio IK reach effector for any weight shifting, foot planting motion from the capture so your theoretical plugin would not be a"one button" solution ( hint MOCAP never is)
FYI-Blender, Iclone,MAYA,MAX All have professional realtime IK foot/ floor contact solving
Also consider that once you pay for the Capture suit, the plugin and Import your MOCAP into Daz studio you have to render in 3Delight or the brute force Path tracer from NIVDIA .
Some people render animations in IRay but many cite its long render time as the main reason they dont try animations at all.
Okay? You know a Animation is, a animation the only difference is the tool you use to make your PNG's you use in your film editor. Pretty soon thanks to Ai you won't need to learn anything to make animation. But If your not creating animation with PNG series of images in your flim editor then you are missing a lot of great opportunities for post work and add ins that can't be achieved with AVI or MP4
I love all types animation I seen some great animations done with crappy animations tools and seen some down right awful animations with high end software. So that has lead me to believe it has more to do with how good a artist you are with the tools you are using. than the software available. If you know your software(s) even if it was just iclone or just blender one software of choice inside out.you should be able produce a animation with anything even pencil and paper & just drawing it. which BTW was how animations was first made. & That is how I approach making any animation 1 frame at a time.. Storyboards in todays' Animations studios are always drawn out by hand first and copies passed out to the team members . when I started with animations 10 years ago I was always criticized for using Mocaps, Bvh file and aniblock I was always told by other animators using high end software. my animations were not real animation because It was made with Poser or Daz Studio using aniblocks of BHV files. Over time with the help from people like Wolf, Wendy and a few others here. I learned to create some very entertaining short films using only daz studio. its a choice i made over poser or blender. So daz is my software choice for a animation tool. And yes you can animate in Daz Studio quite well in fact.
I almost hand keyframe everything and render it out in daz studio in Iray or 3delight. & honestly from the stuff i seen made from iclone and blender i see no difference from those animated shorts then from what I made in daz studio. I am talking animated short films 2- to 9 minutes long not the 20-30 second hula girl animations
Yes I agree make a lot of mistakes in my animations, i do miss stuff. I am old & I am only one person doing the work of a team of 50. But because i make the mistake does not mean the software at fault. I learn to work those issues. If mocaps is your solutions than good for you. But i find them very restricting in creativity to the story being told now days.
So if I was just a Newbie starting out yea I would want drop and drag animation tools too like iclone. But if I wanted to be a professional animator I would go to school & learn the industry standard animation tools like Lightwave and Maya, But I am a hobbyist with a small budget. So daz is great for person like myself.
I am not judging your skills I have never seen a animation you made . so I have nothing to convince your not skilled. But I still I believe good animation has more to do with how good a artist you are with the tool(s) you are using. that is where i am coming from.
I was doing some work for the owner of a mocap studio, and he introduced me to the guy who really knows mocap. I'm working on another project with him, and I'm going to ask him if he'll help out. We don't have to reimplement MoBu, just just some basic functionality behind the retargeting: layers, pins, reach. But the problem remains the Daz side.
Right I was not questioning your skills at all you what your talking about. But using Mocaps to make Hula girl animations is not a real animation creating using mocaps in a shortstory animations is common and I use them myself so your point?
because my point is you can be a real animator can make a real animation with "quotes" using Daz studio without mocaps its not necessary. does it take some work , you betcha . But you can take draw one picture at a time and make animation too and you sure do not need mocaps for that either.