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LOL just tried it but no it didn't work for Filament either
I had to manually painted some areas , especially the one closer to the scalp and the roots of the others other way it flipped back and forward , one time open scalp then closed again ....
it will only works when the white color is solid RGB 255 RGB 000000
As you say, we have been told this since the beginning of Iray, but PAs contrinue to deliver products using grayscale maps in Cutout Opacity, especially for hair and fabrics.
And everyone later complains about hours of rendering
I am very glad about Filament , you can't cheat with it anymore , back to basic that was avoided for so long in the last 5 years
now it is a landslide of BS products like for example skin for Filament .. who make up stuff like that .. lowest low
now this is odd the hair is semi transparent and playing up without an opacity map
just strips
so something else is going on here in the shading
go to iray shader and replace the shader with the Uber base or hold CTRL and replace everything but maps then load your alpha maps again
Here's hoping they slowly enable this into an actual rendering engine. Would be great for three things.
Animation, people on lower end systems, and for those of us who have chosen to stick with team red over team overpriced.
Now if only we could decouple d-force from freckin' Cuda.
Is there a tutorial somewhere about baking AO maps to a Daz character? I've never heard of this before.
Plus, what's an alpha map?
Sorry for the questions. But I've got some big scenes that I can't render in Iray, so I'm trying to convert them to Filament. I'd like to try and get the best out of them.
Dforce works fine on my other computer without a cuda core in sight
according to GPU-Z it uses 100% of my intel graphics
it has crashed the graphics on long animated sims though
Yes, dForce uses OpenCL rather than CUDA.
Filament still use a graphic cards for real time rendering so lower end systems will have also limitations on some point , and more functions in Filament would request more resources of your system and graphic cards
I don't see here huge advantage beside not using Cuda in Filament .
Filament is a real time render engine , and it is actual the engine , just with some limitations
If Filament have all functions and support most of the shaders they offer , your low end system will not working with it anymore. Not enough resources to run it, same with Games
so adding everything will cut other users from using it .. make no sense right?
and switching to CPU is not an option .
I am not entirely sure what it all uses on my intel motherboard, I guess I need more sensors but GPU-Z suggests it actually doesn't use a lot of my onboard graphics, sadly today will be too hot 38°C to test its limits then another thunderstorm, other one couple nights ago lasted about 12 hours and the sky was fully lit, a tree fell down and killed a woman driving and hailstones damaged stuff in many places, our 2020 weather must be kicking in.
If you can't render in iray, I suspect Filament will not help you , the biggest scenes I tried run faster in iray than Filament and both use the same amount of VRAM
There are tutorials , just search YouTube , but the tutorials are not about baking AO into DAZ characters as that would be like going 20 years backwards in the evolution of 3D human figures
You don't bake AO into texture maps materials when using a PBR engine , that is the complete opposite unless you use it for very fine lines and details , but for that I would use Bent Normals with baked AO for proper work.
You can make the figures looking better with very fine editing like nostrils or inside ears etc , just open the head/ears texture in an image editor of your choice and edit the area you want to appear darker (not glowing )
You can also create AO and use layered image editor to blend it with the Genesis figure, like you do when using make-up with layered image
You can bake AO in Daz Studio using 3DL engine and some good old tools from the DAZ store ( sorry I don't have the links on my phone )
You can also search YouTube for creating Bent Normal but this is a process I am afraid requesting some skills in 3D modeling and not so easy to fix , you need some tools for that and little skills as that is a more advanced process.
Best option for beginner would be , import head texture into Photoshop or image editor you use, create a layer , paint on the layer areas you want to appear darker in Filament and export it to use as a layered image in D|S to cover the (glowing ) nostrils , ears , eyelids or whatever .. the color doesn't need to be solid , very dark red/brown definitely not black , you also need to set the reflectance/specular off for the areas , or it will still look weird ..
The major problem with Filament in Daz Studio is that it don't have GI , and the IBL light passing through the objects , I would recommend to use less IBL and add spot or distance light with shadow to improve the overall look of everything , as blowing up environment light will not do any good to the human figures , the Filament AO have too low resolution to cover the fine cracks and holes in your model
You want to improve the look, stick to PBR values , make sure the skin setting or skin textures are not lighter as the recommended values , if you use values like white paint it gonna glow
I hope that Filament give people the opportunity to learn the basic of PBR engine they love to use, including iray, as it works on the same principles , rules and theory and stop looking for alternatives that don't really matters but only clogging the engine , causing long time renderings and crashes ..and make everything only more difficult as it really is .
Carrara is what shines on that particular machine, it outpaces Octane on the other one sometimes too and leaves iray for dead
but definitely not PBR
3Delight is honestly better on it too
Filament is a bit of a puzzle there as it definitely is lacking in graphics so badly I struggle using the Carrara and Poser viewports on it at times yet Filament seems OK.
Hi,
so is there tips to minimize render time with iray on CPU as many users have Hi End Nvidia Graphic Cards ? (i know Saved Final Render SIze reduction, MCJ denoiser, Mattymanx resource svaer shaders (i found them usefull), GhostLights ?).
Just because someone uses a high-end graphic card does not make them right to clogs the shaders with useless maps and settings , as that mostly delays the rendering , including also half empty scenes when not using Environment maps. Using denoiser at the end of iterations in place of the beginning .
Conserving the energy in PBR rendering is the path way for faster rendering whatever you use , CPU or Graphic Card
This includes shaders and scenes in general, it is like you trying to heat up your room in winter but you keep open your windows .. The energy escapes and it takes a long time to warm up or not enough power to do that.
Same with the light in Iray and scenes that don't use actual HDRI , the light escapes the scene resulting in slow rendering and noisy result.
Physically Based Rendering is not only about rendering realistic photo like scenes , it is based on theory that everything in real world is shiny and reflecting the light from each others surfaces, having the proper settings of the shaders that the engine use for calculations will speed up the rendering and any cheating on the setting and not proper values will result in longer calculation slowing the rendering time and we talking about simple metal and not metal materials.
Volumetric materials take a little longer time to render since we dealing with absorption of light and not just reflectance like for example human skin or any skin or materials that use this function, and it is little heavy for CPU to process quickly , however having proper reflectance can speed up the rendering process no matter the light conditions , or it is just a spot light or environment map
In iray not the light sources make the render but the light that reflects from the objects surfaces materials and bounce around from each other finishing the job, and any interruptions of it ( bad reflectance settings) slow it down.
but going back to Filament as that is our hot topic here
Filament is not iray or an game engine , but if the DAZ's programmer want, they can build something great around it to support more functions or even turns it into very own DAZ3D Game Engine ( if they want) compared to what we have at this moment in Daz Studio. Long time ago Iray started the same way as Filament , simple PBR render engine rendering reflections from IBL maps.
Filament at this moment in D|S render 100% accurate PBR materials Metals/Nonmetals , there is no doubt about it and if they add more shaders support for the skin and translucency for other materials it is gonna be a hit and very cool alternative , and of course shadow catcher function is a must have for Environment maps. But it all needs a time , so until then would be nice if people start to learn the simple basics and not butcher another render engine before it get finished with nonsenses and magic tricks while sinking the ship beyond the return at the same time, but I guess that's the human nature to make things more difficult as it really is.
I think it is time to make some very simple cards explaining the basic so it is going to be less frustrated later for many and since Filament run by the same basic principles as Iray.... even better for the newbies
If you are proposing making these simple cards, I'm sure many of us would appreciate the tips. Again, my main complaints about Filament are poor hair (and cloth with opacity maps) and skin rendering. I know Filament is a preview draw style and I understand that some people use it as such. I don't because, for me, the results are so different to IRay that I still have to use the IRay preview anyway. But I would like to use Filament for animation and DAZ seems to be promoting it for that use too. I will not do so if the hair looks like a shiny, solid helmet and clothes that are 90% see-through.
Filament is not the culprit of all this, any user importing to another render engine will have the same problem around tweaking shaders, the same applies with all the major leagues, the problem is any new user looking for the "make art" button, Filament btw do at some point nice adaptation of iray and 3delight shaders, in my past you always got a white diffuse figure on a paid and expensive software.
when I saw this new render engine, obviously had issues, instead ranting on all the topics I better did "you want to challenge me, Fila?"
No problem , I can make the guide cards , regarding clothing and hair you need to adjust the shader to the basic possible for Filament for best result , hopefully the skin setting for Filament get some extras in the future , however the big problem is lack of GI
Ah, so the secret of why so many products I can't get to work now I expect it if they use cutout opacity.
@MEC4D Thank you
it is very obvious in other render engines such as Unreal or iClone too, I am forever changing opacity maps to just black and white in Gimp because they do a similar thing there.
All new PBR shaders I am working on for some while working the same way across most platforms , as long it support the same workflows, for example metallicity workflow , of course you will get slightly differences in translation as some nodes are linear in one program other quadratic , but that are not that huge differences to complain about.
and I agree on the make art button but a lot of users pay for it so they don't need to sit for months figuring stuff out as that is their personal choice and I can't shame them for doing that as not everyone has time for doing their own stuff.
This thread is more for people that want to do something because they find it interesting and want to learn in the process and share some tips with each other that are helpful and not another complain thread
I tested a lot of shaders that are used in other PBR real-time engines, and it works almost the same way in iray and Filament , if not I would not even bother with Filament at all .
So let's focus on the positive side of it all to make it better and easier for all .
tweaking shaders for each scene and light is a past , here is a new and better way and hopefully it get only better with the time ,
and translating 3DL to Filament or Iray is as good as long you don't use the actual 3DL shader for rendering using these engines as that would be your first mistake and HUGE NO!
You can use many maps created for 3DL shaders , as many of them have built in AO and it will helps in the visual aspect of Filament , like for example many of my old clothing sets for use with 3DL that I have in the store here , it all use PBR maps for specular/gloss base mix long before iray was in D|S , also easy to translate to metallicity/roughness workflow without leaving DS . I guess I was little ahead of time .
now going back to the cards, will upload shortly when I finish it , of course for those that needs it or want to start fresh
We have a lot of conversations about Cutout Opacity 5 years ago and a lot of explanations why not using it the way many do.
You can use it to cut out the geometry and that's what it is for , with a dress you can create beautiful maps to cut out the threads and make it work like half transparent and still be accurate and proper and render quick .
Same with the hair , many hair I have on my library use glossy values for diamond for no reason , the reflectance of the hair in the iray is not greater than 0.5 unless you go for shiny synthetic wig style .
That includes characters as well with maps that are plugged in for no reason and glossy values beyond this earth, mixed values for both specular and metallicity basic shaders in one shader even if not working together , total chaos ! Specular/glossiness base mix shaders have greater control over the surface than metallicity/roughness in iray and that is a fact so sometimes things in Filament may not look as good as they look in iray. Filament works best at this moment with Metallicity/roughness base mix shader , as that is a very simple shader for a simple render engine like Filament , and less chances of making errors or mistakes .
But when you see Metallicity/roughness shader with a glossy color set up for non reason is wrong , that tells me the creator has no clue what they are doing.
I can go here with a long list of stuff ..but let's stay on the positive side and do better next time !
Don't price the day before the sunset ! you can thank me when it works for you
working on it ! it is gonna be long so I am doing a web page with all the stuff and cards to go with it .
Yes Wendy , that is the way .. you see iray can handle things visually differently , because there is global illumination so you don't see the bad effect as often but the engine is as much confused and take extra time to process .
Many hairs has flipped normals so it give also issues no visible in iray and the same for some trees and plants that using alpha maps ( cutout geometry maps) the opacity in the name is confusing people, since it has nothing to do with opacity of the material but geometry, opacity is not accurate material function in pbr engine, transulency is and so index of refraction.
I know we are used to old shaders from the past and transmaps was our best friend to fake something we could not achieve other way, but that is a past. You can still make beautiful hair using Cut out opacity function , but the map need to be made correctly . Like for example the feathers I made on the helmet using strand hair that actually using Cutout opacity maps on the geometry to save some VRAM and rendering time .
The Filament on the left is kinda fuzzy since the test was made with the very early Beta Filament before the function of mipmaps was added to reduce the resolution of the alpha map , it working just perfect without issues
I saw they use grey ones so often but assumed the professionals at this know what they are doing for the basics like that; but the subject technology I guess is voluminous, every changing, and next to get source technical references that are bo th current and correct.
Ugh, that's enough writing for today my linguistic facilities are now failing with a more bizarre nonsensical twist. Lieutenant Commander Data I am not.
Well, tweaking shaders and lights, being "a thing of the past" like you said got me this beautiful skin shader on Filament...and just playing with parameters because Im not a tech savvy like you.
@Zilvergrafix that's not what I meant by , I mean when setting the proper material once , you don't need to edit it ever again no matter what light or scene you have . It will looks always good
The huge problem is that many channels and functions in the base shader mixers not responding in Filament as they do in Iray , they need to be simplified to the minimum base
for example I have ground plane with water and stones based on textures , I need a map to control the reflectance of the stones and water , when I use the linear glossy input for the maps it will not works in Filament , not because it is wrong as it works great in iray, it's because this shader function is not activated in Filament and I have to switch to Reflectance value and plug my map there to fix it. Another example, some values for PBR material are available only in linear grayscale color values , that when I need to use the glossy input again as the other not support linear values etc.. and Filament will not render it
Most real time render engine don't have the options for editing Reflectance for non metal materials, so no matter skin or plastic the reflectance render out always at the same values, the only option is roughness , bump maps and normal maps. We are lucky to have a greater options in iray to control it exactly we want to the fine details.
The problem here is
1. Everyone create stuff based on how it looks for them in the scene ( for the eyes) then need to edit it again once the light changes ( old ways with older engines and shaders )
2. Many PBR shaders that people create use more advanced iray shaders settings that can't be rendered in Filament at this moment ( it is a simple lightweight engine that can't process everything that why it is fast and not need Cuda cores )
3. Most of the shaders presets people create have nothing to do with iray or Filament or PBR ( fake it until you make it )
The secret of PBR shaders is in Reflectance/Roughness , human skin and nails have the same level of "glossy" reflectance , the only difference is roughness , even if you polish your natural nails it will have still the same glossy value , it looks more shiny because the roughness changed by polishing . Look on a bald head of a person, it is more shiny than the face and body, because of less roughness and not because of higher glossy values unless there is oil on the skin that have little higher values in glossy than skin but not dramatic around 0.36-0.40 max and almost double less than sweat on the skin or tears. All non metal materials reflect at 100% value at the angle , thanks to Fresnel effect that is already build into Glossy reflectivity and you don't need to worry about it under Metallicity/Roughness base mixer.
Metallicity/roughness base mix don't have any glossy , the name there is only so you know what it is about, it is Reflectivity/Reflections and Roughness
if you follow the rules for Reflectance it will helps you not only in Filament but also in iray as it works by the same principles
below little instruction , what you should do and what you should not do for best results .
Under Glossy Reflectance , you have a very small range that you can use for all materials that are not metals, that includes also a rusted metal or painted metal since the surface is no more metallic and lands into nonmetal category .
The values are between 0.1789 to max 0.50 ( 0.50 is set by default in D|S) and higher values of Glossy Reflectivity are used only for gemstones like for example value 1.0 for Diamond, anything that falls below 0.1789 are for materials that don't exist in the real world and are pure fantasy and can contribute to slower rendering and poor light distribution in your scene.
You may be thinking why Water is less "glossy" than skin or wood ? well that is true , the only difference is lower roughness that makes it appear more glossy to your eyes, but in reality the material is much darker and reflects less light. Objects with higher gloss and higher roughness values appear much brighter even if you don;t see any glossy on them , for the same reason you need to have a proper albedo brightness for your color diffuse that usually is much darker than you believe it is and never brighter than 240 for RGB , if the nonmetal object is too bright as maximum white 255RGB it have the same color value as the maximum light in your scene , it is like you try to render a bulb with a bulb , make no sense right? reducing the brightness of the albedo color base will allow the light to create shading and make it look 3D and less flat.
When you work on editing skin for Filament where you missing the SSS, it is always better to start with darker color of the skin , set the proper glossy/reflectivity , turn on distance light and slowly increase the skin color brightness to desire effect but never go above the recommended values , if you use a textures for the skin , some are correct some are too bright , you can reduce the brightness by changing the color base and adjust the grayscale color a little bit down , but don't mess up with glossy values anymore , but only with Glossy roughness to get the desired effect.
if you have any question regarding it , or is not clear let me know
I am working on some stuff and presets that will allow you easier to add the right values in DS with a click , until then you can edit it manually and restore the proper settings for use with Filament , however it gonna works as good in iray as in Filament and not need for additional settings , it will works as well with a spot light or HDRI maps and that is the goal, less working editing and more time for creating.
Wow, that is really helpful and very clearly presented. Thank you.