Jazz 8.1 discussion

ChangelingChick

Serene Night said:

Richard Haseltine said:

Serene Night said:

So the Feel the funk outfit. Why does putting the shoes on the character make the character go to t-pose. That is super annoying. 

Too much pose saved with the wearables preset, probably. I've had various ones like that and they have been fixed after reporting.

I put an order in, but I just don't get why these things aren't caught during testing.

That particular issue is that the character was likely already in the default pose, so the tester was looking for the feet to pose with the shoes. It's a really easy thing to miss. I'll send in a suggestion for a fix to prevent this in the future.

Mada

The Blurst of Times said:

Random render, just prepping the idea muscles for a contest entry.

I'd say the formless torso has one advantage: it allows you to show off patterned fabrics without distortions.

Very nice :) That's one of my favourite shirts ;)

AHArt

PixelSploiting said:

AHutchins Art said:

PixelSploiting said:

Firstly, it's a nice character but there's nothing that calls for making her G 8.1 exclusive - the skin is not PBR and the UV are G8F. Also, she's not using any G8.1 character morphs.

 

 

I am not sure why everyone is making a big deal with the 8.1 Characters using the 8 UV's. Not using the PBR shader I get (since that was a draw to 8.1) but the UV's themselves do not make a difference. You can make a perfectly fine 8.1 character with 8 UV's and the PBR shader.  

 

 My point is, there's nothing in this particular character making it G8.1 except for the Daz decision to save the file and sell it as G8.1.  The skin materials aren't PBR shader, they're Iray Uber. You can can even load those materials on a default G8F with no error message or need for loading PBR shader before. The model uses no G8.1 specific morphs and even the eyelash model is default G8F.

I managed to convert her to G8 in fifteen minutes tops.

The previous character from the same PA was using some of the G8.1 features.

 

 It's just the company throwing into the bundle what they had at hand.

 

I'm actively avoiding characters with G8.1 exclusive unwraps myself. The new UV break compatibility with G3/G8 and PBR shader can be put on any skin anyway.

Just checked her out and it might have been a mistake when it was submitted (might have clicked 8.1 instead of 8) I say that because in their description they state "for Genesis 8 female". One thing I am a little confused on though is it lists a micros map which is only used in the PBR shader I thought.  But with this being a DO, someone at Daz shouldve caught that I would think. Or maybe with DO buyout's Daz is just listing everything compatible with 8.1 as an 8.1 figure? 

PixelSploiting

AHutchins Art said:

PixelSploiting said:

AHutchins Art said:

PixelSploiting said:

Firstly, it's a nice character but there's nothing that calls for making her G 8.1 exclusive - the skin is not PBR and the UV are G8F. Also, she's not using any G8.1 character morphs.

 

 

I am not sure why everyone is making a big deal with the 8.1 Characters using the 8 UV's. Not using the PBR shader I get (since that was a draw to 8.1) but the UV's themselves do not make a difference. You can make a perfectly fine 8.1 character with 8 UV's and the PBR shader.  

 

 My point is, there's nothing in this particular character making it G8.1 except for the Daz decision to save the file and sell it as G8.1.  The skin materials aren't PBR shader, they're Iray Uber. You can can even load those materials on a default G8F with no error message or need for loading PBR shader before. The model uses no G8.1 specific morphs and even the eyelash model is default G8F.

I managed to convert her to G8 in fifteen minutes tops.

The previous character from the same PA was using some of the G8.1 features.

 

 It's just the company throwing into the bundle what they had at hand.

 

I'm actively avoiding characters with G8.1 exclusive unwraps myself. The new UV break compatibility with G3/G8 and PBR shader can be put on any skin anyway.

Just checked her out and it might have been a mistake when it was submitted (might have clicked 8.1 instead of 8) I say that because in their description they state "for Genesis 8 female". One thing I am a little confused on though is it lists a micros map which is only used in the PBR shader I thought.  But with this being a DO, someone at Daz shouldve caught that I would think. Or maybe with DO buyout's Daz is just listing everything compatible with 8.1 as an 8.1 figure? 

 

I think it's just canned readme because there are no custom micro maps for this figure. The previous Marty for Vic 8.1 had custom micro textures for skin. Looks like Daz simply listed it as G8.1 and called it a day.

The Blurst of Times

Mada said:

Very nice :) That's one of my favourite shirts ;)

Thanks for helping put that outfit together! Definitely a fun shirt, open or closed. The collar looks good... and the UV layout made it simple to add on a different fabric. It seemed like a good contemporary fit for the Jazz 8.1 theme.

outrider42

plasma_ring said:

daveso said:

i stated everything was getting toon looking awhile back and was told i was off my rocker. this dude look toon to me. not full blown loony toony but on the edge of it. for sure not normal human advancing reality character, but floating in the other direction. 

This honestly confuses me because Daz characters have always been semi-stylized (they have also had proportion issues on occasion--Tasha 8 is one of my favorite figures but her head looks enormous on her default body). Most PA characters are stylized. Heck, if you look at the ZBrush category on ArtStation there are more toony to semi-stylized characters than there are projects shooting for true photorealism.

It's not that Jazz is an especially good example of a semi-stylized character making it work, but I've more frequently seen people critiquing stylization as a bad or regressive choice on Daz's part when their bread and butter is selling flexible assets. The more realistic a character model is, the less flexible it is, and while there's definitely ground between "I want more realistic characters" and "I want characters to be indistinguishable from real humans," there are diminishing returns. Looking at Sebastian Bakala's work, there's a visible difference in approach between even his realistic Cyberpunk designs and his photorealistic portraits, because the former are still simplified and idealized enough to read as video game characters at a glance. This one is interesting because it shows how even rotating the light source influences how much she looks like a 3D model, and yet the last person I saw doing anything close to this with a Daz character got jumped on for trying to pass off a photo as a render until they posted their wireframe. 

What I think Daz may be doing, with debatable levels of success, is trying to modernize how they handle stylized elements. The older G8 characters have a very recognizable Daz Art Style that sets them apart from characters rendered in other software, and both the PBR shader and newer sculpts scramble that a bit, at least for now. 

The whole marketing push behind Genesis 8.1 was about how everything was more realistic. It is literally the first thing they say on the page!

 

"Introducing

GENESIS 8.1

Improved Character System for Photorealism, Facial Expressions and Facial Details"

Plus we have years long threads dedicated to working with skin shaders. I do not see how steering towards photoreal is limiting at all. These are 3D products built on a modular platform of Genesis. You can always pull out realistic features from a model. It can be as simple as turning down the strength of a texture map. However, it is vastly more difficult to add realism to a character that lacks realism. I think these are fair points to make, and again, specially given the entire marketing behind Genesis 8.1 to begin with. There was no marketing about cartoonish characters here.

I don't have a problem with stylized characters. I liked some of the anime like characters that were made. Having variety is great, and you will find I am always in favor of variety. But we are not getting variety here. Pretty much every single DO 8.1 has been stylized to a fair degree. That is the problem...a lack of variety. So it is fine to offer stylized characters, but this should be balanced with more relistic characters...you know the thing Daz themselves advertised as having.

And being recognized as a Daz character is not really something I would personally be proud of. In some parts of the net those are fighting words. <.<

Cyberpunk 2077 has an art style of its own. The game is not going for pure photoreal graphics. The cars and buildings do not look quite photoreal either. So I am not sure what purpose the comment serves.

We also have new digital characters emerging from other places now. Epic's Makehuman is looking very good, and it is only in a beta state right now (I really need to stress the fact it is beta). We are starting to get into a situation where video game characters look more real than Daz characters, and Daz characters are the ones that look like they "came from a video game". I do not believe this is good for Daz. Daz is an asset store...Daz should not nor ever be a "style", Daz should be whatever the customers buying the assets want it to be. Some customers do want stylized models. But some do not.

The Blurst of Times

Stylized figures? I'd rather do that myself. I mix existing figures with things like 3d Universe's Toon Generations or Lady Littlefox's Star 2.0. I think another PA created a toonify morph/script? By using a common base for toonification, I can get a consistent look & feel in my stylized figures.

I think a lot of recognizable "Daz figure" work tends to be in pr0n games with raw render output. Does that bother me? No.

The quality issues are a concern, however. They've been a concern for a while. There are many questions about the content of the store (like the increasingly conversative attire), but quality concerns are something that cuts across all of our interests.

I've got another Jazz render in the works. I don't honestly know how much I'll use him after this contest. Of the 3 so far, I'll probably use Jacqueline the most.

If there are fewer contest entries for me to compete against, I am okay with that this time.

The Blurst of Times

Well, the new Jazz bundle looks interesting... if low on crime and high on medieval times.
¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

Anyway, here's a literal take on the Jazz theme, combined with the "throw a ton of colorful crap into the background" style of image.

xyer0

The Blurst of Times said:

Well, the new Jazz bundle looks interesting... if low on crime and high on medieval times.
¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

Anyway, here's a literal take on the Jazz theme, combined with the "throw a ton of colorful crap into the background" style of image.

Great job! 

DisparateDreamer

Cybersox said:

And why is a female character in a male pro bundle? What is with this? Jazz does not have a single add on character of his own? What?
 

I don't expect to see many of those in the future.  Just as PAs gave up on making characters that used the custom UVs for the earlier genesis line figures, there don't  seem to be many making characters that specifically require any of the 8.1 bases.  And why should they?  Between the massive established user base of characters built around the Gen3/Gen8 UV system, the fact that most of the G8.1 characters that have come out have been poorer cousins of previous Gen 8 characters, and the fact that a lot of folks are still avoiding the latest version of DS, the market for anything made for the 8.1 characters is going to be far smaller for years.  One would have thought that the DAZ designers had finally caught onto this basic fact when they abandoned the much hated custom UV templates, but even though it appears that the new batch have apparently completely missed all of the obvious lessons of DAZ history, the PAs most certainly haven't.    

While I don't know the premise or reason of the new way of doing bundles, I rather like the new UVs and they're great to work with. However, I have been holding off on using it, simply because I am not sure the majority of daz users have moved to the newest Daz version/8.1 yet. I think it's worth upgrading for - its faster for me in loading and saving and the UV map is better. I'm still using 8 maps instead of 8.1 on characters though for a while to reach the most market, with PBR settings optional. I think there's been a lot of fabulous character bases but PAs are encouraged to make shapes for the base G8 most, so that's why there's been a shift. I think there's shapes for everyone. I mean some folks complained Ollie was too toonish but he's still my favorite shape by far (Torment tho is a close second). 

Timbales

I just don't understand the lack of consistency. ________________________ Michael 8.1, Torment 8.1 and Jazz 8.1 are the same price. ____________________________ Michael 8.1 comes with fibermesh brows with 5 color presets and a preset for adding veins. _______________________________ Torment 8.1 comes with horns, a tail, two different complete character and skin presets with different textures, store doesn't say he comes with fibermesh brows, but he apparently does. _________________________ Jazz 8.1 - one character shape and texture (face brows/no brows), no fibermesh brows.

blaz

I can't check right now, but I'm 99% sure Torment has fibermesh brows.

Timbales

blaz said:

I can't check right now, but I'm 99% sure Torment has fibermesh brows.

They aren't listed on his product page in the store.

Serene Night

I think brows were added after the bundle was released

Timbales

I guess that's one more for the lack of consistency column then.

AllenArt

blaz said:

I can't check right now, but I'm 99% sure Torment has fibermesh brows.

Yes, he does. 

Timbales

lol Okay, I'm deeply sorry that I went by the store page list of what was included with a character.

DisparateDreamer

Sometimes things are updated ... I know recently Daz has taken some feedback and improved things :)

AllenArt

Timbales said:

lol Okay, I'm deeply sorry that I went by the store page list of what was included with a character.

 

Timbales

If we can move past the brow issue - which I edited to fix - a I alone in wondering why there isn't a baseline standard for what you get with a Daz Original Core/Numbered Figure? ___________________________ Today's new Daz Original Bergelmir is not only a character preset with textures, but also comes with clothes, props and hair for a list price of $24.95. _________________________ It baffles me.

Philippi_Child

I am one of those that is in no hurry to install the lastest version of DS. Hence, anything 8.1 is moot. 

Hylas

Timbales said:

I just don't understand the lack of consistency. ________________________ Michael 8.1, Torment 8.1 and Jazz 8.1 are the same price. ____________________________ Michael 8.1 comes with fibermesh brows with 5 color presets and a preset for adding veins. _______________________________ Torment 8.1 comes with horns, a tail, two different complete character and skin presets with different textures, store doesn't say he comes with fibermesh brows, but he apparently does. _________________________ Jazz 8.1 - one character shape and texture (face brows/no brows), no fibermesh brows.

This is not news. The prices of DAZ core characters have never made a lick of sense. If you buy the HD, a core character is priced at 85$. You can get a high quality character with HD, fibermesh brows, and sometimes other goodies such as beards, tattoos, etc. for around 20$.

The Blurst of Times

xyer0 said:

Great job! 

LOL, thanks. The Blue City set does most of the work there. I guess I should try to use the clothing from Jazz's set, but the Cool Style outfit from the Lucas 8 bundle is a little easier to deal with since it's a Conformer rather than a dForce everything set.

Lucas 8 had a fun Pro Bundle. One of the earlier Genesis 8 bundles? (No dForce.) He's an interesting point of comparison to Jazz...

daveso

outrider42 said:

plasma_ring said:

daveso said:

i stated everything was getting toon looking awhile back and was told i was off my rocker. this dude look toon to me. not full blown loony toony but on the edge of it. for sure not normal human advancing reality character, but floating in the other direction. 

This honestly confuses me because Daz characters have always been semi-stylized (they have also had proportion issues on occasion--Tasha 8 is one of my favorite figures but her head looks enormous on her default body). Most PA characters are stylized. Heck, if you look at the ZBrush category on ArtStation there are more toony to semi-stylized characters than there are projects shooting for true photorealism.

It's not that Jazz is an especially good example of a semi-stylized character making it work, but I've more frequently seen people critiquing stylization as a bad or regressive choice on Daz's part when their bread and butter is selling flexible assets. The more realistic a character model is, the less flexible it is, and while there's definitely ground between "I want more realistic characters" and "I want characters to be indistinguishable from real humans," there are diminishing returns. Looking at Sebastian Bakala's work, there's a visible difference in approach between even his realistic Cyberpunk designs and his photorealistic portraits, because the former are still simplified and idealized enough to read as video game characters at a glance. This one is interesting because it shows how even rotating the light source influences how much she looks like a 3D model, and yet the last person I saw doing anything close to this with a Daz character got jumped on for trying to pass off a photo as a render until they posted their wireframe. 

What I think Daz may be doing, with debatable levels of success, is trying to modernize how they handle stylized elements. The older G8 characters have a very recognizable Daz Art Style that sets them apart from characters rendered in other software, and both the PBR shader and newer sculpts scramble that a bit, at least for now. 

The whole marketing push behind Genesis 8.1 was about how everything was more realistic. It is literally the first thing they say on the page!

 

"Introducing

GENESIS 8.1

Improved Character System for Photorealism, Facial Expressions and Facial Details"

Plus we have years long threads dedicated to working with skin shaders. I do not see how steering towards photoreal is limiting at all. These are 3D products built on a modular platform of Genesis. You can always pull out realistic features from a model. It can be as simple as turning down the strength of a texture map. However, it is vastly more difficult to add realism to a character that lacks realism. I think these are fair points to make, and again, specially given the entire marketing behind Genesis 8.1 to begin with. There was no marketing about cartoonish characters here.

I don't have a problem with stylized characters. I liked some of the anime like characters that were made. Having variety is great, and you will find I am always in favor of variety. But we are not getting variety here. Pretty much every single DO 8.1 has been stylized to a fair degree. That is the problem...a lack of variety. So it is fine to offer stylized characters, but this should be balanced with more relistic characters...you know the thing Daz themselves advertised as having.

And being recognized as a Daz character is not really something I would personally be proud of. In some parts of the net those are fighting words. <.<

Cyberpunk 2077 has an art style of its own. The game is not going for pure photoreal graphics. The cars and buildings do not look quite photoreal either. So I am not sure what purpose the comment serves.

We also have new digital characters emerging from other places now. Epic's Makehuman is looking very good, and it is only in a beta state right now (I really need to stress the fact it is beta). We are starting to get into a situation where video game characters look more real than Daz characters, and Daz characters are the ones that look like they "came from a video game". I do not believe this is good for Daz. Daz is an asset store...Daz should not nor ever be a "style", Daz should be whatever the customers buying the assets want it to be. Some customers do want stylized models. But some do not.

it may say more realistic in the promos, but skin textures and overall look not . I think expressions with 8.1 are much better.  

Artini

I make him move a bit together with the others from Daz 3D.