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People don't seem to understand that doing separate 3DL, Poser, and IRay mats takes time. Pretty much double the time. Its like getting 3 texture sets. Of course prices are gonna go up some. It takes a while to do texture sets and a PA would like to make money on a product and not lose money for the extra work.
I apologise for mistinterpreting your comments - I must admit that I mistook you for someone else. It certainly wasn't my intention to 'jump on you' but if you feel that this is what happened then I am sorry it came off that way.
poor Jack, we started a flame war
BTW iray mats would need flames on those wicks for emitters :lol:
I made my own in carrara for Octane emitters and added flickering resizing movement to all of them too
went bit overboard and resized and rotated all the fireplace flames too along timeline
rendering animation now to see how it works, not sure as power stays the same only the mesh moves so may not flicker
I would have absolutely no problem paying for an iRay product as long as it was truly PBR - Not just the existing maps plugged into the slots but real normal maps, each material area separated out that have physically different properties, and roughness maps and albedo for the appropriate shader model (PBR Metallicity/Roughness vs. PBR Specular/Glossiness).
In fact, because I recognize that this approach to creating physically based and accurate shaders takes longer than with 3D Delight, I'd have no problem if the pricing point reflected that effort.
This, what Bohemian said, right here.
Making something truly optimized for Iray does indeed require a lot of extra work. Textures need to be edited (and often additional ones will need to be included) and light settings are totally different. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with two versions of a product in the store so that people could buy the one that was optimized for their renderer of choice (or having to pay a a little more for the settings if they wanted both options).
However - plugging a specular map into the Top Coat node does not count as including an Iray MAT. This is what concerns me about this transition to Iray; how many *true* PBR versions of products are we really going to get? It's a ton of extra work for PAs, and it will greatly slow down their productivity. I would recommend DAZ bring on someone very experienced in PBR to specialize specifically in creating Iray-optimized materials for PA products...but they don't really listen to me any more. ;)
Thanks again,
Walt Sterdan
Well it is a bit greedy, but since you asked nicely :-)
I only re-rendered the night scene, as the day one would have taken far too long. I stopped it after 90 minutes since I needed my PC and it runs like a dog when rendering is going on. By this point it had reached 2500 iterations and 50% convergence. If you look at the GPU and CPU only pictures closely you will see the latter is only marginally worse quality. The ceiling looks the same, but there is slightly more grain in the floor in particularly.
If I had let the render run to the end it would have taken around 3 hours, so we are looking at a 10 times faster render, but then I do have a pretty good nVidia card (1664 cores), I guess it would be classed as mid-high range.
Remember that I set up the lights in 30 mins or so, and they are not at all configured for render speed. With iRay the render is often faster with more lights, where as that is the opposite for 3DL. I really did this test render to see what the materials looked like with default settings, speed factors where interesting, but secondary to that.
I don't want to comment on the merits of iRay vs 3DL, and I for one will continue to use both. However iRay is certainly more satisfying to use when you have a half-decent nVidia graphics card, and I like the fact that I can render in GPU only using it whilst continuing to use my PC as normal.
Employing a PBR expert consultant sounds like an excellent idea. Just because someone is a PA, doesn't mean they know anything about PBR. I imagine this is all new to most of them, with a few exceptions, like Mec4D. It will take time for them to come up to speed. They probably didn't get any warning that Iray was coming.
I've already been disappointed with a product in the store that advertised materials optimized for Iray. In fact, they were just 3Delight shader materials with slightly different surface settings. The metal surfaces didn't even use the Iray metal shader presets. If I had paid a premium for this product to get "Iray materials", I would have returned it. At current PC+ prices, I'll keep this one, because the texture is nice, but I'll be very wary of future purchases with similar advertising. Maybe true PBR materials will be too expensive to show up in PC+. I guess time will tell.
Yes, I've just begun working with Substance Designer 5 - a tool designed for PBR texturing and its a lot of work!
Havos what tone mapping settings did you use on the Iray Day render?
Greetings,
...There's lots of stuff going on, and a bit of vitriol, and I'm a little late, but I have to call this particular quote out...
As a father of two very different boys, and painfully aware of the difficulties of balancing parental attention, this made me spit-take. At work. So 'thank you' for that. ;)
Back on topic...
It's a lovely, lovely set, Jack. I picked it up last night. I've been using Iray exclusively, lately, so I'm sure I'll buy the materials when they come out. I'm not as concerned about PBR-details as some folks seem to be; I care vastly more about the materials looking good in Iray, than being perfectly physically based.
-- Morgan
I think this is where I'll be, certainly for the the forseeable future.
To redo all the maps etc would a hell of a lot of work, and really, if people want that, then it would have to be at the expense of either Poser or 3DL materials - or something else but I don't know what at this stage.
None of which would go down that well, as this thread has shown already. Still, it's good to get some feedback.. so we'll see how things progress. I'll kinda punctuate this thread by repeating what I said already, nothing is set in stone, and I reserve the right to change course as numbers and feedback dictate.
I have also noticed the lack of flames, the relevant jpg's are there but they do not appear in the scene when loaded, and I can not find a duf file to use to load them. Maybe the geometry the flames are placed on is missing, Jack, any ideas?
The candle flames are post-worked, as are all of mine.. it just gives better results IMHO.
Not sure where you're seeing the jpgs of them?
The Iray version though does have stand-in 'candle light emitters though ;)
Which ever way you decide to go, Jack, please make it clear on the store page, so we know what kind of materials/shaders are included, Then we can make an educated decision on whether it is what we are looking for. Thanks for listening to the varied points discussed here.
The candle flames are post-worked, as are all of mine.. it just gives better results IMHO.
Not sure where you're seeing the jpgs of them?
The Iray version though does have stand-in 'candle light emitters though ;)
maybe the fire flames are confusing the matter.
https://youtu.be/YsHxgKTlI2I
mine need work, and more pixel samples which slows down the animation rendering an awful lot
The candle flames are post-worked, as are all of mine.. it just gives better results IMHO.
Not sure where you're seeing the jpgs of them?
The Iray version though does have stand-in 'candle light emitters though ;)
It is the fire flames that are missing, not the candle ones. There is a jpg for it, so I assume it should work.
The shutter speed was 64, ie half the default of 128, and the ISO was 400. The settings are what I would want when taking a photo of a large room indoors without a flash. Fortunately, unlike my own hand, the iRay camera does not suffer from hand shake, which is an issue with slow shutter speeds on a real camera.
Thanks. Interesting as I would use ISO 1600 for a real camera indoor without any additional fill light. Did you increase Sun Intensity as your light seems a lot brighter than mine when I use the same tone mapping as yours.
The candle flames are post-worked, as are all of mine.. it just gives better results IMHO.
Not sure where you're seeing the jpgs of them?
The Iray version though does have stand-in 'candle light emitters though ;)
It is the fire flames that are missing, not the candle ones. There is a jpg for it, so I assume it should work.Yeah the fire flames are hidden by default, just select the log and expand in the scene pane and unhide the fire flames. Obviously this is not pointed at Havos. :)
Ah yes, you are right, I had forgotten I changed this. I used "Dome Only" and the standard HDR environment map that Daz supplies. I twisted the dome about 180 to have the brightest light come in through the windows on the right, and I increased the environment intensity a lot, to 10 instead of the normal value of 1.
I guess this was not very realistic, and I should have had a lower intensity and a higher ISO and/or lower shutter speed. I should add I am a complete beginner with iRay, I have only been using it a few days, and I did not have the time to play with the beta like many folks here.
Oh don't worry about being new to Iray many of us are in the same boat though I have been using the beta since it came out. Yeah I found ISO 1600, F stop 4.00 and Shutter speed of 60 to be about right with that you don't need to increase the sun or HDRI intensity but I am still playing.
It is the fire flames that are missing, not the candle ones. There is a jpg for it, so I assume it should work.Yeah the fire flames are hidden by default, just select the log and expand in the scene pane and unhide the fire flames. Obviously this is not pointed at Havos. :)
Oh yes, so they are, I feel very stupid that I had not looked to see that the flames were there, but hidden. Seems odd that they are hidden by default, when the light set that comes with it includes a light to make the fire glow.
I guess I am still influenced by my experiences with real cameras. I tried to avoid using ISO 1600 on my older camera, as there would always be a lot of noise in the photo.
This is true with older cameras but now not so much. Some newer ones can go as high as 3200 without much noise. Mine can go up to 1600 with no noise at all.
It is the fire flames that are missing, not the candle ones. There is a jpg for it, so I assume it should work.Yeah the fire flames are hidden by default, just select the log and expand in the scene pane and unhide the fire flames. Obviously this is not pointed at Havos. :)
Oh yes, so they are, I feel very stupid that I had not looked to see that the flames were there, but hidden. Seems odd that they are hidden by default, when the light set that comes with it includes a light to make the fire glow.doh I thought you had them showing in your tests renders...silly me.
Oh yes, so they are, I feel very stupid that I had not looked to see that the flames were there, but hidden. Seems odd that they are hidden by default, when the light set that comes with it includes a light to make the fire glow.doh I thought you had them showing in your tests renders...silly me.
That was just an orange point light, hard to tell from a distance.
I guess I am still influenced by my experiences with real cameras. I tried to avoid using ISO 1600 on my older camera, as there would always be a lot of noise in the photo.
I never had much of an issue with noise back in the day - but I shot transparencies (slides) at ISO 400 pushed to 1600 at processing time.
If you work with Substance Designer be aware that PBR Metallness maps export will never works with 3Delight , only PBR Specular/Glossy export can be used in both Iray and 3Delight for good results . I am working with Ddo and tried Metallnes but it did not work good in 3Delight anymore and I had to make additional maps what is waste of time here and space , exporting PBR Specular/Glossy will be always usable in both render engines as all my other products used already PBR Specular/Glossy maps one year ago but need to be adjusted in Iray and plug in the right places .
Using correct PBR materials will speed rendering so much when rendered with Iray plus it always works in all light situations
Now that I have the flames unhidden, here is a close up render of the fireplace with the flames showing. I tried my normal trick of putting an orange light behind the flames to simulate its light, but that looks awful in iRay. However turning the flames into emission sources makes them look 10 time better. I also included a 3DL render as reference.
iRay render took 5 mins (I actually left it longer, but there was no improvement after 5 mins).
3DL render took 45 mins.
iRay done using my graphics card, but assuming it was 10 times longer on CPU only (as per my experience above), then there would be little between the renders times for 3DL and CPU only iRay.
I would have to say I prefer the iRay, but I think the 3DL one is good as well. The flames are some of the best I have seen, Jack did very well with these.
As a father of two very different boys, and painfully aware of the difficulties of balancing parental attention, this made me spit-take. At work. So 'thank you' for that. ;)
heh, sorry m8 :D :D
I don't have kids, but man, it can't be easy to find that perfect balance of parental attention. Especially when you're working, too. >.<</p>
Well, I guess now that DAZ has an additional customer base to satisfy (Iray-users), they'll find out how hard it can be for themselves :D
Now that I think about it, isn't this the tv plot where a new child is being born (Iray-users) and the older siblings (3Delight-users) fear that their parents (DAZ) will no longer pay them the attention they once did? If that's so, I think it is expected of the 3Delight users to start acting out and set the curtains on fire and stuff. ^^
Er fanning the flames, maybe thats how the Poser users felt after DS4 . . . . . . . But Jack has em covered at least
and carrara users (the child they keep in the attic) benefit from this too.