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Perhaps this can illustrate the issue. The cylinders and tubes all started as 1 meter high and 1 meter diameter cylinder primitives, just the number of sides where changed and the tubes had their tops and bottoms deleted and where shorten to see the inner cylinders better. The blue and red pair have 36 sides and the red tube was rotated on the y by 5 degrees. To get the tube to stop intersecting the cylinder it had to be scaled to 101%. The green and yellow pair have 18 sides and again the tube was rotated on the y by 5 degrees. In order to get the yellow tube to stop intersecting the green cylinder it had to be scaled 102%. The reason for the difference is the fewer the polygons the greater the angle between faces thus the need for a larger offset.
Now that I understand, and it is only part of the issue. That is akin to 'Expand all', and appears to be working. Tho it is not all of what is going wrong. The shape is wrong with the auto-follow. The FBM created by Auto-follow is not the same 'shape' as the figure it was created from, That is the underlining issue.
Akin to your example, lets simplify G3F plus some V7 to an incredibly simple shape, as you suggest, a cylinder. Now auto-follow only need to make the clothing FBM with a slightly larger cylinder to eliminate poke threw (pink and green). Now another PA has decided that they want a custom Z-brushed (or whatever program) adjustment to the basic cylinder, to be more oval like (Purple and green). Depicted here, the FBM is correctly adjusting the size of the green cylinder, however it is ignoring the 'Shape' of the z-brushed adjustment to the cylinder. Resulting in not just Poke-threw, also gaping gaps in other areas.
The same exact thing is happening with Summer with the Post apocalyptic outfit. There is an enormous gap at the top of the waistline of the pants, and the legs lower down are poking-threw. Yet the same outfit fits V7 perfectly, hmmm.
(EDIT, Adaline, not Summer, oops.)
If your referring to the 'crease' on the sides of the mouth with a smile, errr. I don't know, I have yet to try them. There is a few 'crease' dials under 'cheeks', I think, yep.
It's not the shorts that give the gap - they follow. It's the parented prop that is the belt that creates the, and it won't follow morphs. This is a consequence of the way the outfit has been created.
So the pants was a bad example of what I'm seeing with everything else? Because of the belt?
I think so, but I am not getting the poke-through around the bottom of the shorts that you show (once the smoothing modifier has had time to kick in).
There is something I do not understand.
I happens to have both Summer and the Post Apocalyptic outfit, so I loaded Summer, out-of-box, and equipped her with the PA shorts.
Smoothing was on by default and in the viewport it looked kind of ok (1st attachment).
But then I did a spot render, and lots of poke through became visible (2nd attachment).
I tried to increase number of smoothing and or collision, but I just couldn't get the poke through to disappaear.
you know something, I stand corrected, I guess that was Adaline above, lol.
The only hint of a clue why some things look good in the view field, and are complete disaster in a render probably has something to do with the 'Sub division level'. Tho thinking about all the times I've fussed with tucking shirts into pants on G2F (generation 6), I do remember similar behavior. It would look good in the view-field, then a spot render would show further adjustments were needed.
As for smoothing doing nothing, that is oddly because the shorts are trying to conform to G3F/V7 shape, and ignoring the z-brushed shape added on by summers dial. Regardless if it is following the wrong mesh information, or if it is following the bad FBM generated by auto-follow. As mentioned three or four pages back by now, something is broken on G3F.
(EDIT)
I do see some specs of poke threw on the top, and it also gets much worse in a spot render (rather TOS violating in a render at that).
(EDIT2) At first glance, "Base Shape Matching" appears to be doing a better job, then however there is that gap just below the bellybutton, that or it is an optical illusion, hmm. Again, the SHAPE, is wrong.
V7 has a smaller Hip Bone Ridge Width, then summer, and that is the Sape the auto-follow generated FBM is trying to mimic (the wrong shape). There is allot of other 'details' as well that cloths just are ignoring on all of the z-brushed (or whatever the program was) non-daz figures.
While some prescribe to such insane Mesh smoothing levels, unless you have 64 cores running at at least 50GHz (with Linear To Parallel Execution), you'll be waiting on allot of this.
I have found that "Smoothing Iterations" of, 2, 3, 5 is more then adequate when stuff is working properly. Something I've only had to do with v4 stuff on "generation 6" figures in the past, before G3F. The default of 3 for Collision iterations is more then sufficient, even for putting shirts over other cloths. At the end of the day, fitting V4 stuff onto G2F has so many other problems, that I haven't wasted my time with it in quite a few month.
OK, for something that looks good in the viewport, but renders terribly, first check the Displacement Strength of the character's texture. Displacement Strength should be at 0% (yep, Zero) in Iray and for 3Delight, Displacement strength, minimum and maximum should all be at zero.
Given the outfit in question, that probably won't help, but it's worth a shot.
My 'ZDG TOS Protection' mat, has no maps in Displacement/bump/normal, lol. I will look at that with ALL the outfits rendered on the former page, it was something I didn't think of. Some of them I did do with the AElflaed's Linen Basic (white, converted to Daz Default Shader) just to let the red show up better where the body was poking threw. Those ones I did remove all Normal/Bump/Displacement as it was a tiled shader anyway.
Starting about here
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/887486/#Comment_887486
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In separate news, this is the outfit straight out of the smart tab, unalterd, on Skylar. As mentioned before, 3D Universe completely replaced the Cloth auto-follow thing with some kind of 3D Black-Magic (involving keyboard skeletons and candles, lol). This shows that z-brushed non-daz G3F figure shapes can work with cloths that don't have custom JCM things specifically made for that figure.
It's just a matter of G3F Auto follow being completely *****. (is that, legal. I will make it legal. lol)
That wasn't actually meant for you; another user had mentioned that they were having problems with things looking fine in the viewport, but borked on render. THAT is frequently an issue of clothing interacting with texture displacement. At least some of the outfits you've had issues with have looked bad in the viewport before render, so that wouldn't be displacement.
And I did check that when I tested mine. I think none of the Iray textures load with displacement mapped or active; I didn't test the 3Delight textures or renders.
I've only been doing 3delight, as this computer is not exactly friendly with setting up scenes in Iray. Something about waiting over an hour for test renders just to see what adjustment need to be made (and for each adjustment), lol.
No, the outfit looked good on summer here in the view-field as well. So I'm not sure at this point, just how many things are broken with G3F, lol.
All I know, is cloths are not working like they did for G2F (select the figure in the scene tab, double-click the outfit in the smart tab, pick a color for the outfit, and done).
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L-to-R. Thorne "Karynna for Aiko 6", Silver Countess "Zyra", "Sabby-Bunny for Genesis 2 Female(s)", and "Bijou for Genesis 2 Female(s)".
All of them are completely custom z-brushed shapes (not based on morph dial sets), All of them are non-daz figures (except Bijou), None of them have custom made JCM things in outfits specifically for them... And outfits fit them All perfectly straight out of the smart tab without any fuss at all. All of the G2F figures I've done lineups of were equally hassle free with fitting cloths (with the exception of tucking a shirt into a pair of shorts from a different set, nothing to do with fitting the figure).
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/774402/#Comment_774402
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/778100/#Comment_778100
etc...
So, why can't G3F work with custom Z-brushed figure shapes like that, and more impotently, when can that be fixed? Or was the entirety of all the stuff I've purchased for G3F a complete waste of my money and time?
Adaline is the only figure I had problems with and it is a custom morph built upon the Victoria 7 morph. When dialing out Victoria 7 the poke-through almost completely goes away. The poke-through on render that isn't visible in preview I suspect is due to some change in how tolerant the renders are of planes sharing the same virtual space. A Push modifier with an offset of as little as .05 fixes everything with out having a major impact on appearance (except for maybe extreme close up shots).
Sorry but it is NOT exceptable that at pretty much a default pose, they don't work, seing as the more extreme the pose, frequently the more work is needed.
I see an update for the "Monokini for Genesis 3 Female(s)", tho I doubt it has anything to do with this. From what I'm not allowed to say, it can take hours if not a few days to set up JCMs properly for a single figure, and this debacle is affecting ALL non-daz figures. I will give it a try tho.
nicstt. Yea, most of these are in the standard 'T' pose straight from the smart tab. Others I slid the 'Arms up-down' pose dial all the way to make room for multiple subjects.
My irritation extend beyond just stuff not fitting without poke threw in a 'T' pose, that some claim 'expand all' or a 'Push Modifier' will fix (I think not). As I keep saying, the shape is wrong. While some are happy with gaping gaps on the edges of outfits just so there is no Poke-threw, I'm less ecstatic about all of it. I'm not keen on the idea that the appearance of the outfit is just that of G3F/V7 rather then following the shape of the figure it is actually on. Not to say, the locations of the faulty FBM aspects created by Auto-follow severely limit what custom shapes PAs can make without things going drastically wrong with outfits. All of it has severe implications that I hope Daz3d did not intend with generation 7, rather I hope this is just a goof in some code somewhere that can be fixed (before fixing it breaks to many outfits made before the fix).
Is G3F the next CV-5 Yorktown, post Midway? Struck by an all mighty blow, dead in the water, and in need to get back to the shipyard before it is struck again while in tow. Yorktown was thrown into the battle at Midway, with only one of four boiler rooms functioning, she had problems to begin with before the battle.
Here is the response from the Content team...
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Any HD ones that have issues are probably due to the fact that HD morphs don't really project well to clothing. We get around that with DAZ HD shapes because we build what are called "Projection Morphs" that will make the clothing fit the HD morphs better. At this point, I don't think we require all artists to make these projection morphs, which means there may be issues with some shapes.
Smoothing can sometimes work, but not always. If the mesh behaves badly with default settings, you may want to change the smoothing mode from "Base Shape Matching" to "Generic" and see if that improves.
The feature of automatically generating morphs on clothing to match the figure is a really cool feature, but it isn't perfect. Sometimes it just doesn't do the job. The answer is for the content creator to create custom morph fits on their clothing for those extra shapes, but there are so many morphs out there that it isn't reasonable to try to support everything. Plus, we add new morphs to the figure pretty much daily and it isn't possible to go back and update the clothing every time a new morph comes out.
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Post Revelation Thoughts. It is a known issue that HD figures do not work with Auto-generated Morphs (FBM). And there are some measures or shall I say 'Countermeasures', Daz3D takes to get around this with there Daz Original figures. However the Revelation raises some considerable concerns, to put it lightly. First and foremost, I have quite a few HD generation6 HD figures that work perfectly fine with cloths.
Cara HD for Victoria 6, FWSA Tempie HD for Victoria 6, FW Destiny HD for Victoria 6, LYFW Sherri HD for Victoria 6, Stella HD for Victoria 6, Zaniyah HD for Genesis 2 Female(s), etc. (a list spanning 2 pages in my Product library).
G3F, HD or Not HD?
G3F (Don't know)
B7, no. E7, no. V7, no. (Still untested by me)
Fiora for Eva 7, No. (Dose not have major Auto-follow issues)
Sophia for Bethany 7, No (still has Auto-follow issues)
Carmilla for Victoria 7, No (still has Auto-follow issues)
- I still need to look threw the rest of what I have.
1. Do they even allow PAs access to the tool to make those 'Countermeasures', and are they truly adequate enough to do the job without considerable work from the PA s, And further fussing with adjustments by the end users?
2. There are quite a few G3F figures that are not 'listed as HD', that still fail to properly work with Auto Follow. What is the major malfunction with them, if it is not a known HD Auto-follow glitch?
3. Why, put stuff known to be broken, in a Pro bundle!? (With considerable biting of my tongue) Daz3D has at least three G3F Pro Packs, that contain Broken stuff. What is Daz3D, Doing, to fix this HD Auto-follow glitch?
This dose not adequately explain why Mesh Smoothing is equally as Broken on G3F custom shapes. As a n00b to 3D art, and as a non-PA, I don't have access to the mentioned tools and lack the z-brush/hexagon skills to fix this with the figures I've already purchased. So it is truly out of my hands. I'm basically sitting on allot of stuff I've purchased, that I can not use at all, unless some one else can fix it for me.
So, in a nutshell, at least for now. G3F figures are not for people that can't make custom "Projection Morphs" along with “custom morph fits” on clothing for G3F figures. That figures, lol.
Yes, the tools to make projection morphs are available to PAs - they are just the basic tools in DAZ Studio, so you could in theory make your own projection morphs (which are just alternative shapes that are used for geenrating the AutoFollow morphs, in place of the actual shape istelf - for example a breast morph might have a projection version with the cleavage filled in to avoid the shrink-wrap effect).
Ah, yes, and no.
I distinctly remember reading in multiple 'short' threads regarding content creation (That wasn't entirely what I was looking for at the time), that PA tools for HD content, is NOT available to the 'general public'. And as such there is a limit to what we can do as 'mere mortals' (lol). Don't ask for more, as it was clear that this is not something to be discussed on the forum, and none of it answered my Questions regarding making a 'master control' shaping dial to control other dials, lol.
B.O.T.
Remember, I have at least two Non-HD G3F figures (Sophia and Carmilla) that also have issues, so I suspect there is more HD factors involved with G3F figures then there was with G2F. And that may have some issues with the non-HD Auto-follow mechinism.
So, given that, and my lack of skills. I only have a handful of non-HD G3F figures I could make 'good' projection morphs for (theoretically)? The rest would require PA 'privileges' for the HD tools to make 'good' HD projection morphs?
And, IF, some one was able to make those Projection morphs for G3F figures, What is the likelihood they could share them (not the entire figure, just the projection morphs)? Lets just say, I have doubts, and I know I'm not that good with Hexagon to be making morphs myself. I still can't get a simple Cube to have a nice 45 degree beveled corner without it going round when sent back to studio (It turned a simple carpenters rod-clamp into an alien artifact, lol).
P.S.
Why do I want a master-contro dial...
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/815363/#Comment_815363
You don't need the HD plug-in, as far as I know, to make projection morphs for HD mrophs - certainly the projection morphs don't need to be HD, the whole point of them is to smooth out the detail of the HD moprh which would not transfer to most clothing.
Ah, yea. That sucks. lol. Three Pro packs worth of stuff that is broken, and I'm not allowed to fix it, hmmm.
(EDIT) I completely read that wrong. I think I understand now.
Some cloths do not have the geometry to reproduce the HD shape (or follow the HD shape for looser stuff) of HD figures. And that stuff just needs to be larger and roughly the correct shape (like a compromise between round and oval in my former example).
Other things, as I've discovered elsewhere, just don't transfer well without HD/subdivision (tho my experience did not involve cloths, just a nose shape experiment). Using a D-form I managed to get a nice hint of horizontal ridge near the tip of the nose, tho when I sent it to a 'morph' dial, the ridge smoothed out considerably (removing that 'hint' of a ridge). So I've been thinking about that in general, HD D-form to non-HD morph thing, along with what it would take to get a modified outfit with D-forms attached to show up in the smart tab (possibly replacing the original one).
I need more coffee, and to think about that more. It is not a solution if it can't be packed up, and used with any outfit for a particular figure. I don't think D-forms can work that way anyway (in that a D-form rig can not be dropped onto any item, and work). If it's feasible, it's allot of work, and it dose not address the underlining problem.
Yes, I changed my signature, as I feel a little like Cato to an extent with less recognition of an issue that keeps cropping up, time and time again. I am getting tired of this, lol.
What has changed. New Pro bundle non-daz-original G3F figures, new G3F outfits, and the same exact problem in the same exact locations as shown on the past three pages at least. Everything else has already been said and attempted, here is the test renders. Some of them are not that bad, If your into (Post Processing) Photoshopping your renders. Others are more extreme (and NO, I'm not showing them this time).
That I think is a sufficient number of tests for this round, there is a problem. I'm going to work on something else, as I grow tired of repeating myself.
So in closing. Ceterum auto-sequi oportet esse figi -> However, auto-follow must be fixed.
Smoothing collision seems to be done using base, pre-sub-divided, mesh resolution/density so increasing sub-d levels won't help. I believe I mentioned it in an earlier post that suspect the problem is the slightly lower mesh density of the G3F. The crease angle between polygons will be a bit sharper then previous meshes. The solution is probably in those hidden setting to adjust the offset and depth calculations but I don't have the patients at this time experiment with them.
I have already tried those settings (Weight's, influence, Base Shape/Generic, SubDivision Algorithm, Edge Interpolation, etc), including the "Lock Distance". It is completely useless, as the Smoothing is being bushed to a shape that is not the figure the cloths are on. Also "Lock Distance will not go beyond "0.1" even if "Limits" are turned off on that dial. So the suggestion of using Smoothing is completely ineffective on Non-Daz-Original G3F Figures.
On the latest run, I can see that Mesh smoothing is 'trying' to pull the mesh out of the Non-daz figures, however something is pushing the mesh a few inches inside the Non-daz figure in three spots at least, and pushing the mesh away from the Non-daz figures in a few other locations. And it's the same exact spots on ALL of the TJ7 non-daz figure shapes, and it happens to be the same general locations as all the former tests (Crotch, side of hips, under-side and sides of the breasts, etc).
(EDI) added ladled renders of the areas in question.
Not intentionally, tho the last three pages has been "trying" at best, lol.
You know, I have had the same exact HD vs AltShader issue before G3F came out. The advent of Iray added yet another thing for PA's to make mats for, and the AltShaders kind of dried up at that point (Along with the separate HD dials). The understandable reason being that making three or more sets of materials for each figure, is kind of time consuming. The emphases is on the time consuming part, as each mat needs to look similar in different render engines (That's not easy, I know).
You probably noticed the number of items that support the Poser surface engine thing, has also diminished as well. Again, because of the time and effort part of the equation.
I do have a mend for you, if your using 3delight instead of Iray. Especially if this is mostly for setting up scenes, dealing with fit adjustments and anything else that requires a lot of spot renders. I have a 3delight AltShader preset over at sharecg, for G3F. If you hold the CTRL key while clicking the DUF, it will bring up a menu that will allow you to replace the shader, and keep most of the maps intact (you'll also need to set the UV mapping back if it is not Base Female). It's not perfect, yet it will save you considerable time setting up scenes in 3delight.
http://www.sharecg.com/v/81384/
Teal'c boomed. "Brothers, hear me!" lol.
I know the grief of waiting over half an hour, just to find out if I need to move a dial a tad more or not. That "Unrestricted use" is on that material preset DUF for a reason. I know your time is valuable to you, and I don't want you to have any reason to hesitate with something that will save you time. The G3F base maps belong to Daz3d and are not included with that zip (you have them already if you have G3F). The settings in that material preset DUF I've shared, do with as you so desire for personal or commercial purposes, you need not even give me credit.
Hint. You can start there, and after some adjustments (If you think it is needed), you can save that as a new "material preset" in the folder with the figure it is for.
I have a dirty thought regarding turning off HD with figures that don't have separate HD dials.
That is FWSA Paloma, as the presets have them set. If that "High Resolution" is set to "Base", dose that effectively disable HD stuff? No, Much worse. It makes the shoulders less, round. And upping the 'SubDivision Level' dose not help.
I'm also guessing that (minimum) after that "Render SubD Level" implies that HD shaping overrides the setting. I can't tell if setting that to one has done anything or not, not to say, I have no idea where the HD stuff is for any of the HD figures I have.
I will also note that G3F has a more evenly spaced lower Mesh density then G2F. So while it makes morphing easier (somehow), it may still require a higher subdivision then would be needed on Generation 6 figure shapes.
So, If none of the above is a good solution, I don't have any other ideas for a 'Lighter weight' G3F figure.
@ZarconDeeGrissom - Was this poke-through issue ever solved by Daz, or did they just give you one of their "Its working as intended" lines? I'm still seeing it.
Also, has anyone with FWSA Bonnie (http://www.daz3d.com/fwsa-bonnie-hd-for-victoria-7) noticed that the textures junction between torso and legs on her right hip is very noticeable? Its not at all on her left hip, but for some reason the right hip is very different. Anyone else seeing this, or is it just me? I'd like to know before I submit another fruitless ticket to Daz technical support.
Nope. It works fine on the Daz Originals like V7, Eva7, etc, so it is not an issue according to the 'rules' for auto-follow. Base mesh without subdivision (SubD of 0), and daz original figures only. Every one else must resort to putting D-forms on the outfits to make them fit the non-daz figures like Summer or FWSA Adaline (Ironically the two figures included in the V7 Pro bundle), lol.
(EDIT) map seams. File a support ticket for that (Just that not the other topic). I didn't notice it on Bonnie my self, tho I did notice it on another figure, and daz was very happy to address that (understandably, it did take some time to redo the maps).
As you can see, the seam was horrible on her, and daz and the PA did address this.
I do see a bit of a seam there on the left leg of Bonnie in the view-field with her default Iray shader, tho that may be just the limitation of OpenGL. Let me do some quick test renders in 3DL (3delight). I do see a hint of a seam with the 3delight mats in the view field, tho it is not as obvious as the Iray mats in 3DL, and I have to look for it. Spot-render pending.
I do see a line on the right leg as you point out, tho it is no near the map seams, it is much further down. Now, this may have been a real-world tan-line of a sort from shorts out in the sun, possibly. Testing further...
Yeah, this is the attitude I've come to expect from Daz technical support. I don't know why they call them "support" because their default action appears to be to avoid providing any help as much as possible.
I think you're right, its not a seam but some kind of very obvious weird change in texture tone... like a reverse tan line thats only present on one thigh. If it was on both thighs I could understand it, but just being on one makes it look a bit stupid. I won't waste my time submitting a ticket for it though because I know the technical support team will ignore it. I'll just avoid buying any FWSA characters in future - much simpler.