Announcing The Platinum Club Plus [Beta] Program
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How to shut down discussion - accuse one side of ad hominem attacks and rudeness.
Let's take a step back and examine the facts:
DAZ trialed PC+ as a beta to get statistics about purchases. This thread was started to get feedback from PC members about that trail. To those complaining about negative comments - my advice don't read the thread because it's there to voice opinions, just like the rest of the forum, some positive some negative. To those complaining about too much repetition, again these are members voicing their opinions, some for the first time and others reflecting on their experience of PC/PC+ so far, still more offering suggestions and ideas about what they would like from PC.
Why has his thread run to 60 pages - because for some people changing PC matters whether they agree with this or not. DAZ know this, that's why they're trialling this beta and hosting this discussion on the members forum. I agree that rudeness isn't helpful but to focus on this is a straw man when the vast majority of posts in this thread have been assertive but polite.
Your post is as full of guesswork and misinformation as you accuse others of. Not only that but you indulge in personal attacks that you claim to detest. The whole point of joining a discount club is so that members get the best discount NOT spend their time reading the FAQ trying to work that out. The fact that DAZ is promoting the hell out of PC+ might just have a little to do with why some members have signed up hastily don't you think? Advertising is not neutral - it's supposed to entice. So the responsibility for hasty sign ups is shared by DAZ as well as individual members. If advertising didn't work then millions of people wouldn't be dying every year of lung cancer caused by cigarettes. And before anyone accuses me of comparing DAZ to BAT I'm simply pointing out the power of advertising and it's influence on our behaviour.
This!
Yes I was one of those being vocal in my surprise at the changes. Then I thought about it a while and dove into the beta of the PC+ program. There's no weight to your complaints if you are sitting on the sidelines, ya know?
Then, something interesting happened. I actually sat down and played around with the math and it's really not as bad as people are making it out to be. 1) our usage rules for the original PC coupon got expanded
2) we got an additional coupon that we can use for PA products
3). There's a rotating selection of PA products that we get an additional discount on
Yes, the $1.99 prices are not in effect . That IS going to change my spending habits. No way around that. But, as a company, DAZ3D has a responsibility to it's employees to be profitable. The artists that make the content need to make enough on their sales to pay the bills.
It's just economics and you know, it's still not a bad deal.
In this thread recently the claim has been put forward that the only way to give DAZ feedback about PC+ is to join it but a valid alternative to that is to stick with PC. Either way it's a form of feedback.
The big difference is that products are not provided via a sweatshop paying the staff pennies an hour and are not provided by a manufacturer that can lower the cost because of an order for an extra 1000 or so units. In fact in an industry where 100 sales of a product on intro continues to be the line where a product is considered a success for many categories the potential volume is just not there to support brick and mortar pricing and marketing.
If we are talking product research & design its Paris Couture..if we are talking sweatshop that's inventory production and would be equivalent to the software instance replication & download. For the record though just as I I would not compare the efforts of a hardworking "sweatshop" laborer making clothing with that replicating digital software via automation, I also would not compare a couture clothing designer with the un-glamorous role of a 3d craftsman.
3d product considered a success if it sales hit 100 turns - is that for real? Revenue on a successful PC product is $200??
If true, its unsustainable w/o a bigger base imo.
Status so far....
- First day of PC+ I was able to purchase Stonemason's SciFi Bedroom for $12 (normally 27) and some change with the 30 percent of and PA coupon
- I got DZ's Weazel for free
- Got the Conservatory for free
- Today I got the Chair Collection for free
- Was able to purchase Urban Sprawl2 for 13.99 (Normally 50)
- Viewed the PC store and noted that there are at least 9 items there (on the first page of 30) that I got free before they went to normal price after being free and three of them still are free:
--Chair Collection = Still free
--Conservatory = Still free
--Tubo Hotel = Still free
- Viewed my purchase history and noted that about half of the last 20 or 25 things in there were free, being a PC member. I'm sorry but I'm grateful for all the free stuff I've been able to get over the years but I don't expect to keep getting free stuff or great deals all the time. I've spent my fair share of money as well over the years but I've gotten great deals and free stuff as well.
So far the new PC+ is ok for me. I'm still watching it and seeing how it pans out. My observations so far.
Seriously.
Many of us were able to read and comprehend the beta explanation and process it, and made an informed, CALCULATED decision by realizing there was absolutely NO RISK whatsoever in signing up. The PC items will resort back to their price in about a month. Meanwhile, we're enjoying the perks. Good for "hasty" us.
I have to wonder where you think the products that replicated come from initially. Every single one comes from the creative mind of an individual and then is turned into a digital product through hours of work. No we don't make thousands of the same shirt for retail consumption but then the vast majority of products are sold on an almost couture volume. If in fact we did sell thousands of anything I suspect that prices would be different industry wide.
Essentially you're taking yourself out of the study. The message you are giving is "I don't care what changes you are going to make, I am not going to like them". That IS in fact a message, but isn't going to effect what they decide as a result of a marketing study.
The only thing you gain by opting out is the ability to buy this months PC items at their normal price, something you would be able to do in the first 17 days of August anyway. Hey, play it either way you want, it really doesn't make any difference. DAZ is going to do what it thinks is best for DAZ when it is all said and done either way.
I see pros and cons to the new club.
PLUS
Extra coupon a month.
Able to use coupons on other stuff besides daz originals
NEGATIVES
Increased cost of base PC items
Confusing sales and terms
NEUTRAL
I'm not really so overwhlemed by being able to buy PA's back catalogs at discount, mostly because there isn't a lot of back catalog items I want or need. I realize that is a draw for some, but for me the discounts usually occur fairly regularly so buying at 30% is not a huge draw.
I want the newer items.
Verdict:
I may try the PC plus club for a while. Sadly, I won't be buying a lot of the lower cost daz originals like I used to. I'll wait for the sales to go on sale or for a coupon.
I have to wonder where you think the products that replicated come from initially. Every single one comes from the creative mind of an individual and then is turned into a digital product through hours of work. No we don't make thousands of the same shirt for retail consumption but then the vast majority of products are sold on an almost couture volume. If in fact we did sell thousands of anything I suspect that prices would be different industry wide.
Hmm seems we are talking about different domains. My initial example was comparing the business risk of reselling 3d content. PA makes em, DAZ buys and rewrites license terms for 1.99 and sells instances. From the perspective of the PC acquiring content it does not really matter whether they buy it (outsource production) or make it in house.
Yes- I understand the efforts and costs of designing complex 3d products. I also realize that each product licensed sold to DAZ is a unique and hand crafted piece of work. I also realize that independent artists run their lives like a business and may consider their cost of living with the cost pf doing business. Well yes, domestic life costs have increased while in general incomes remain flat. So the only variable is to increase production, or reduce competitiveness by increasing prices. But that's a digression - I was referring to PC product acquisition and retail pricing structures.
Business cost is normally determined by fixed and variable per sale. Fixed may be initial product acquisition/development and even marketing may be fixed, the the cost of production, merchandising, packaging and distribution are variable and tied to the volume of units sold. With respect to digital, production costs (replicating the media) is incidental however may be controlled by acquisition license terms . For instance the PA may limit reuse via exclusivity or other means. So a artist selling content has leverage too - they don't have to give all rights away but often business fall into the blind trap of tradition...
PC monthly, quarterly, and annual memberships prices are still the same
PC monthly, quarterly, and annual memberships prices are still the same
I thought I was going nutty. I've seen the mention of price increases a few times, but couldn't figure out where the information came from. Glad to hear prices are the same. An increase in price (as a less frequent buyer these days) would be a deal breaker.
Thanks Daz John! I misunderstood I guess. =-) I shall update my list.
The price for the membership itself going up and if they decided not to allow monthly membership payments, that would definitely push me away. I am glad to hear that the prices will remain the same.
I have not been a member of the other club for a few months because I do not want to have to afford the one time cost to get the yearly membership. It is easier for me to add the membership amount to my monthly spending then it is to pull up that kind of money for a membership when there are sales of items and new item intro sales that demand my attention as well. And if I can get a cool new item for a great price on sale I might choose to buy that over the Club membership and the older items that are reduced for being a member
Honestly, both program costs up front are a big chunk of change and Daz was smart to allow smaller payments for theirs. In return it allowed me to purchase more non club items.
Greetings,
Essentially you're taking yourself out of the study. The message you are giving is "I don't care what changes you are going to make, I am not going to like them". That IS in fact a message, but isn't going to effect what they decide as a result of a marketing study.I want to respond to this. This isn't true, in my opinion. Folks who remain in the PC and not the PC+ are, in fact, still part of the study. They are the 'control' group, essentially.
That it's essentially a voluntary control group is a little sketchy, but it's still part of the study. There will be a lot of people who don't even hear about the PC+ beta while it's going on (because they never come to the forums, and who can blame them?) and will also be part of the control group. Lots of ways to dice up the resultant numbers.
There's no problem if folks don't opt in to the PC+ during this beta period, in fact it'll provide more detail if there's a good mix of folks who choose not to.
-- Morgan
Greetings,
The concern about 'prices going up' is a straw man where the argument goes: DAZ currently charges $10.95 for 2 textures in a PC item. If the price is 79% off for new PC items, they could start charging $16.95 base price for two textures in a PC item, and that would be a price increase change that doesn't have to go through the PC '30 day notification' process. It's purely, and solely a straw argument. 'If they did THIS, it would be HORRIBLE. Since the PC+ allows them to do THAT, the PC+ must be HORRIBLE!'
The problem with this theory is that there is absolutely no evidence the PC+ will do this, and a good bit of historical evidence that they are unlikely to do so in any dramatic fashion.
I am neutral on the PC+ in its beta form. I'm fairly sure my total spending will remain about the same, but probably edge towards more PA items, which I think is good, both for me and for the PA community. I do think it gives them flexibility, which will be helpful, but we won't see that flexibility during the beta.
As for the rest, well...the native emotions of the Internet are divisive outrage and moral panic. How dare I advocate for bringing it down a notch...it's outrageous. I must be trying to silence people. Or saccharine. Or a 'cute newbie'.
Or maybe I really believe that this is a complex situation that none of us have all the information to be able to judge. And that a good number of real people's livelihoods are on the line, and easy outrage, status quo demanding, and 'you must not be running your business right' attitudes aren't moving us forward.
Nah, can't be that؟
There have been some really great ideas bandied about, however, and I'm heartened by Jack's comment that the back catalog of PC items will likely be considered as a separate part of any final set of changes. My 'budgetary limitations' are very clearly not the same as many others, so it's good that a lot of different folks are taking part, both as PC+ testers and remaining in the PC during this period of time.
-- Morgan
Morgan: two things.
1) +1 to what you just posted.
2) Such an obviously sane summary points to a major insanity problem - might want to get that checked out. :-)
Indeed, there does seem to be a lot of panic and heated words flying about here, and like you say, the internet communities seem to be a pressure cooker for this sort of thing. It is good to see some cooler heads about. Of course, you know that your comments could be seen as tarring all those with doubts about the PC+ with the same brush? The price increases I was more concerned about were the supposed rise in PC membership. The primary reason I keep this membership is for picking up DO base figures, morph packages and software, so I'm not too concerned with the outcome of the beta, though having access to more discounts on PA items is a definite win for me.
Nobody has all the information and nobody is expected to have it. Markets are precisely for sorting that out. Judge by what you need/want and allow every one else to do so as well and if it's a truly open process all will work out in the end.
edited to add since I'm now terrified of being misunderstood. This is not a criticism of you or your opinions. It's merely my own.
You can even stick with PC AND add your feedback to Daz:
http://www.daz3d.com/subscription/
Greetings,
I absolutely don't mean to; doubts about the PC+ are natural! and in places even right! This is a beta, and betas have bugs. (e.g. PC back-catalog pricing...)The membership price increase problem was a game of telephone; one person had a specific concern about raising prices over time. Another person read a unquoted part of that and presumed it meant something else (membership prices). They mentioned it, and it became part of the canon, and several people got concerned about it. Thankfully that one was nipped in the bud pretty quickly.
At a certain point figuring out misunderstandings becomes a process of archeology, not logic. :)
-- Morgan
Only skimmed the majority of the thread thus far, so apologies if any of these points have already been made. I think people forget that they're not only purchasing the virtual object itself, but also acquiring the image rights for said object. Compare the price of content in the Daz store with similar on somewhere like TurboSquid; where a detailed character can easily push $1000, or even with the price of stock photography.
Of course, I like a bargain as much as the next person, but it's something to think about next time you're outraged that the price of a enormous detailed palace model has "tripled" in price from $1.99 to under $6.
The Platinum Store's a case of not knowing what I had until it was gone, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't intend to take full advantage of the discounted prices again once the beta's over. Oh, and I think we should all be optimistic that there'll be some kind of "thank you" for taking part in the experiment (be it a freebie, voucher, discount, etc...) from Daz.
That it's essentially a voluntary control group is a little sketchy, but it's still part of the study. There will be a lot of people who don't even hear about the PC+ beta while it's going on (because they never come to the forums, and who can blame them?) and will also be part of the control group. Lots of ways to dice up the resultant numbers.
There's no problem if folks don't opt in to the PC+ during this beta period, in fact it'll provide more detail if there's a good mix of folks who choose not to.
-- Morgan
I don't think DAZ has gone as far as thinking about a control group, I say that because they haven't really thought out the all the implications of the beta itself. If, for example, they are trying to see if raising the prices on PC items is going to impact PC item sales, the study is already flawed, since the sales will be impacted by the fact the items revert to the original prices at the end of 40 days. So if you know the item you will have to pay $2.30 for now is going to be $1.99 on August first, and you don't really need it, why on earth would you buy it now? If I were going to construct that test, I would use items that would revert to DAZ Originals after the beta, and not leave them as PC, and I would say that when the beta started. Then you would have a control group. *shrug*. My only point was that you are not giving anything up by participating in the beta since everything does revert, so game theory was there is no downside to joining it.
You can even still throw a hissy fit :P
Well - knowing that items will be DOs and cost more after the beta phase would sure lead to people in the beta program buying them.
But it wouldn't be very realistic either.
The Beta got quite a lot of incentives anyway - from DZFires freebie to Stonemason Flash Sale items being available at the time Stonemason is one of this weeks PAs ... (seriously - how often do you see 60% off on Stonemason?)
It didn't convince me, as I have both items anyway and just skipped on the freebie ...
Pointing out that PC+ beta gives DAZ the flexibility to raise or lower the price of PC items in the future doesn't make PC+ horrible or DAZ horrible, but the fact is that the beta PC+ model allows for price changes on PC items compared to the current, static model. Lower prices aren't always better, and higher prices aren't always bad.
What I'd like to see out of the changes to the PC is the final result makes the DAZ store very attractive for artists so that I have a greater selection to choose from. $1.99 is nice, but selection and quality is more a priority for me personally so a price increase alone won't make me end my PC membership.
Too true.
What are these things honestly worth? That is based on the person who created it and how much they feel is enough to get them compensation for their time, work, and use of resources. But from a customer stand point that item has got to be worth the money it is going to cost them, and will an outfit with a base texture be worth a higher cost? It all depends on the outfit itself and how it can sell. I personally have paid full price for outfits with one or two textures because either the outfit was a really great design or the texture expansion sets had something that caught my eye.
Would I do that for the current pc outfits? Not really, they do not have enough beyond the outfit itself for me to dig into.
I usually buy based on texture expansions. But in that aspect for the price that they were I felt the impulse to buy them either way, how could anyone pass on that price?
Perk of being a Platinum member, that was part of me paying the extra money every month even if I did not spend a dime in the store.
I'm not trying to beat on the vendors, the items they put in the store are worth their weight in gold, but from the current pc items to the newer ones there needs to be some sort of added benefit for the consumer.
When it comes to the scene and prop sets I always imagined them to be grossly under priced in the club, I don't know why but I see them as naturally costing more then any other items put in the store?
Its ONLY use license terms you are purchasing when buying 3d figures & props in the PC, you do not get ownership of the virtual object, just rights to use it under the EULA Its likely the 3d product you see at TurboSquid may have a more permissive EULA or have some limit of distribution or exclusivity. Many of the TurboSquid products are priced for licensing with commercial 3d publishing (like in 3d video games) included. Complexity of the product excluded, if you do not compare EULA terms, then its an "apples vs oranges" comparison.
Its ONLY use license terms you are purchasing when buying 3d figures & props in the PC, you do not get ownership of the virtual object, just rights to use it under the EULA Its likely the 3d product you see at TurboSquid may have a more permissive EULA or have some limit of distribution or exclusivity. Many of the TurboSquid products are priced for licensing with commercial 3d publishing (like in 3d video games) included. Complexity of the product excluded, if you do not compare EULA terms, then its an "apples vs oranges" comparison.
Those arguing about value and price need to be aware that this is slippery ground to justify price increases. Right now I can buy a Fast Grab 70% discount item, 'Pure Hair: Sleek', with one texture for $6.59. At another content provider right now there's a whole kitchen scene with props at 50% discount for $5.72. Now either the kitchen scene developer has lost the plot and is making no profit or alternatively the hair product is still priced too high even at 70% off. Why would anyone sell models if they couldn't turn a profit? If a whole scene can still make a profit at $12 then a hair item costing $22 is overpriced imo. That is the competition DAZ is facing. Sticking heads in the sand or putting fingers in ears and making noises so as not to face these facts isn't going to convince those of us who are experiencing the price of content falling across the board.
Those arguing about value and price need to be aware that this is slippery ground to justify price increases. Right now I can buy a Fast Grab 70% discount item, 'Pure Hair: Sleek', with one texture for $6.59. At another content provider right now there's a whole kitchen scene with props at 50% discount for $5.72. Now either the kitchen scene developer has lost the plot and is making no profit or alternatively the hair product is still priced too high even at 70% off. Why would anyone sell models if they couldn't turn a profit? If a whole scene can still make a profit at $12 then a hair item costing $22 is overpriced imo. That is the competition DAZ is facing. Sticking heads in the sand or putting fingers in ears and making noises so as not to face these facts isn't going to convince those of us who are experiencing the price of content falling across the board.
Now compare that kitchen scene to a scene that say, Stonemason has done, and you'll see a significant difference. Whereas Stonemason's are extremely detailed and textured, etc., I would say this kitchen scene is not so detailed. I'm not saying the kitchen scene is a bad product or that it is sub par, I'm just saying look at the difference and you'll see why Stonemason products run much higher in price. As for hair, again it depends on the vendor and the details, textures, etc., that they put into it. You can't judge the worth of a product by how much it costs. You judge it by how much it means to you, the person buying it. Sorry but your examples are not good ones. Also, keep in mind that some products are bought out right by the 3D sights, and some others are just hosted. PAs have no control over how pricing is done after their product is purchased by DAZ or other sites.