Poser support being run down?
Peter Wade
Posts: 1,642
As a Daz Studio and Poser user I'm a bit disappointed at the number of sets being released that are Daz Studio only with no Poser Companion. It used to be just some Genesis clothes that were Daz Studio only but it is spreading to sets now. In the latest releases La Guillotine, Singers of Chzor and Cases for Curiosities are all Daz Studio only.
I can still use these but I like to have the choice of using them in Poser as well.
Post edited by frank0314 on
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at the point feelz i haz to choose between the softwares.
One reason some of the newer vendors are offering DAZ only sets is the fact that they haven't or won't invest in a copy of Poser. DS can export obj and cr2 files but not pp2's.
Other reasons I've heard have to do with rigging.
Why no PCF's when DS is supposed to be able to create PCF's, I don't know. You'd probably have to ask each individual vendor.
One reason some of the newer vendors are offering DAZ only sets is the fact that they haven't or won't invest in a copy of Poser. DS can export obj and cr2 files but not pp2's.
Other reasons I've heard have to do with rigging.
Why no PCF's when DS is supposed to be able to create PCF's, I don't know. You'd probably have to ask each individual vendor.
To make products truly compatible, a bit more work has to go into it than just making the companion files, such as grouping, extra bones or polygons in certain areas, making more fits rather than relying on smoothing/collision. Also the effort has to be made to make the materials look good in both programs as well. But each vendor has different reasons for not making the companion files which range from not owning poser, not getting items to look and work the same in both so the support has to be dropped, or it simply not being financially feasible to do so.
The simple truth is that DAZ is adding many new features to D/S that get harder and harder to make work in a comparable way in poser.
Plus, DAZ is focused on selling content, they have very strong support for product creators, D/S has the proper tools to make advanced sets, and poser requires alot more hand editing which is alot of work, prone to weird errors.
Plus, the poser market for products has dropped sharply. Showing that the actual number of poser users is significantly lower than d/s users.
So even though I usually still offer some measure of support for poser, it is something that is becoming harder to do and less feasible economically. The work-vs-return figures are getting smaller and smaller as the quality standard and all the cool things we can do in d/s grow. So some of us old-school poser users will still try the best we can to support it, alot of new vendors just do not see the value in it...and rightfully so, as the value gets smaller and smaller.
This is no dig against one software or another, it is just an objective view of how the softwares and the market are growing.
Rawn
I would also assume that some of the 'newer' vendors might just have entered the 3D world through DAZ Studio and thus, unlike in the old days, are just not that used to Poser. It used to be (and still very much is at Renderosity) vice versa, though, with most vendors being Poser experts and not offering DS support.
Someone replied here in the forum that it would be turning his store into a "charity business" to offer Poser support since there are now more DS users than Poser users at DAZ.
Not my words but the words of a merchant I will not name...
Interesting viewpoint. Although I don't see how adding support for Poser when the product already works in DS turns the store into a charity business. But then again, my own bosses have changed their outlook. Jobs they would have turned down even a few years ago as not being worth the time vs the payment are now routinely accepted. Beats twiddling our thumbs and not getting a paycheck.
Just a little reminder very early on to please watch the tone of your posts. If the thread turns into an app war argument (which is against forum TOS) rather than a discussion of the question at hand, we will have no choice but to start pulling posts and warning those who can't abide by those rules or lock the thread.
We appreciate this is generally a topic that evokes passions around here but please keep it to "I made this decision because" and not all the speculating and disagreements on "which app is better" or "why you think someone did xyz" that tends to go on when the topic is asked.
I do not believe that anyone is telling that the program X is better than the software Y. At least not me...
This post is anyway the second and last reply that I will add to this thread.
It was a warning not to start or the thread may be locked or posts removed.
Wasn't saying anyone was doing it :) Just reminding everyone because it almost always happens when the topic comes up and we didn't want to see any arguing or re-hashing if disagreements that only tend to cause people to get upset.
The question was perfectly reasonable to ask...I just want to be sure the answers are free from things that usually escalate the topic :)
Greetings,
Could you provide some proof to this? - otherwise it is nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation. Which last time I checked, was against the TOS.
Hard numbers, please - not your opinion.Raw's a PA here, so I don't think you can call it 'unsubstantiated'. Unfortunately I'm fairly sure DAZ has something against sharing sales numbers.
Individual PA's see the addressable market and each weighs their time versus reward, and it's not really right to tell them they should take on more work for what they perceive as less reward. You're not in their shoes, you don't see their sales, or the work that goes into making something Poser compatible.
There are plenty of things being released, here and elsewhere, that are Poser compatible. It's all good.
-- Morgan
I am one of the ones who hasnt been supporting Poser CF for DSON. I can only speak for myself here, but setting clothing up for DSON has had a lot of weird glitches for me... things I dunno how to fix, and the glitches seem to change every single time and theres no rhyme or reason to it. I have attempted to make the files every single time, and every time, its broken something in some fashion.
That aside, Rawn is right.... the poser market (at least on DAZ) has dwindled significantly. So even if the CF was working for me, Im not sure that I would be doing it anyway. Its a lot of extra work (between doing the actual CF and corresponding materials, fixing things, extra morphs, etc) for not very much extra money. And when you do this for a living, you do have to take return on investment into consideration. When I jumped to Genesis, I did so because it was a lot more streamlined and in some ways easier than Poser. But what I also found was the sales were good enuff to not warrant needing to support that, anyway.
That isn't to say Id never support Poser. I would, and do where its possible. Its just, the divide is getting wider and harder to cross. So for me, its few and far between.
Well for me this was the nail in the coffin for doing Poser versions.
When DS4 came out, it broke my original Send in the Clones Pro. So I had to do some fixes for it. Since I was addressing that, and had not created a Pro version for Poser, I figured it was a good time to that.
Note that I had recently been very disappointed with sales from the Poser version of the Fabricator line, but figured that since they were basically just more textures, that was the reason for the extremely low sales compared to the DAZ versions.... Boy was I wrong!
Total Sales to Date:
Send In The Clones DS4 Pro: 643
Send In The Clones Pro for Poser: 108
When a product is first released is usually when we get our most sales within any 72 hour period, and gives us an idea of how the product will sale over time:
First 72 hours Sales:
Send In The Clones DS4 Pro: 87
Send In The Clones Pro for Poser: 14
Its interesting to see the comments from content creators. I started with Poser and picked up Daz Studio just because it was free. In the beginning it seemed to be promoted as a mostly Poser compatible application. I didn't realise that the differences were getting so difficult to deal with. I've always accepted that you usually have to fiddle with textures when you move between applications.
As a user with a tendency to collect software, I like things to be useable in as many applications as possible. You get things like Bryce being able to work with Daz Studio but not Poser, and Shade can integrate with Poser but doesn't know anything about Daz Studio etc. But I accept that this is difficult for the content creators and some of them don't think it is worth the effort.
I haven't looked into content creation myself. Maybe I should, and try and find out how to convert stuff. If nothing else, spending time on that might cut down the amount of stuff I keep buying (oops, shouldn't really say that here :-) )
I do props and environments so Poser and DS will always be supported. There's no reason not to. I'm a Poser user so everything starts out there and then goes to DS for Mats in there so it wouldn't make any sense to not include the Poser files.
I don't want to start any sort of war here, but I think that "Send in the Clones" is possibly not a good example. Poser can already copy figures without any add-ons. Send in the Clones has more features but if you just want a simple copy function Poser already has it while Daz Studio does not. I bought Send in the Clones for Daz Studio because I wanted to add a function that Poser already has.
It should be noted that on the content creation side of things it isn't the materials really where the divide lies...it is in the differences in technology between the two. The use two very different systems for most things meaning you pretty much have to do certain things (especially when it comes to clothing and figures) two completely different ways. Both have their drawbacks or weird "issues" to work around and usually those things are compensated for in the models. So in some cases it may even take two different models in order to help with the issues each app runs into. This one needs more poly, this one less. This one needs extra poly in these areas...this one needs extra in completely different areas. Even KNOWING all that for both apps is tough let along trying to make something that accomplishes everything you need it to.
Then you have the feature differences between. One app can do this, the other can't etc. So trying to make a pack that accommodates both can me having to restrict yourself, or not being able to do the set at all...or picking to do it only for the app that has the features you want.
And all that isn't even taking into consideration the time to try to thoroughly learn the ins, outs, pitfalls, kinks, workarounds, etc of both apps.
Ann's post is a nice segue into my specific dilemma. I recently did two sets of basically just materials that I decided not to add Poser support for a variety of reasons. First, I do want to say I do have Poser Pro 2012, and I like it. BUT, DAZ Studio is my first program, and the one I know best. I am fluent with the DS surfaces tab, and faintly intimidated by the Poser materials room. So here are the choices I faced when deciding if I should attempt to add Poser support to a character set.
1. Do I run generic Poser companion files and let the end user tweak the materials on their own, knowing I am putting my name on something I don't stand behind?
2. Do I spend the extra time to perfect the materials, knowing the extra time will add to the overall cost of the item?
3. Do I team up with a Poser proficient vendor and split the profits on what will already be a fairly low profit margin?
4. Do I do the Poser CFs as an add on pack knowing that would irritate the people that want it because it wasn't included in the base product? And knowing it probably wouldn't sell enough copies to make it worth doing?
5. Do I drop the support for Poser and just make it for DAZ Studio and meet my production deadline?
I do have a set of lights that come in a DS only, Poser only (which actually includes more features than the DS version) and a bundle of the two. I can tell you that the DS only version has sold twice as many copies than the Poser only version. The DS only version has also sold more than the Poser only and the bundle combined. These are the facts that influenced my decision.
I'd be perfectly willing to add Poser support to my products when possible, but the numbers I see, and the testimony from other vendors is making it clear to me that the return on investment is not adding up. Add the very valid points that SickleYield, Rawn, and IgnisSerpentus put in that the technologies are growing further apart and are less compatible than they ever have been, we are doing the best we can with what we have to work with.
Hehe, well, I hadn't posted before, but I guess now I have to, DG. ;)
I no longer support Poser because my products depend on creating or using specialty features of technology. Some of these just can't be replicated in Poser; some would be prohibitively time-consuming (Mother Beast has 2600 bones, there's no way that could ever be two-program compatible). And I have similar issues with the material room, but that wouldn't stop me if there was a real financial incentive to learn it.
With a big time and difficulty penalty for supporting Poser, and no strong monetary incentive to do so, it's unlikely I'll resume unless the market undergoes a big change.
Ah, sorry, must have been remembering the comments you made in your commercial thread about the rigging differences between the two programs. That is a perfect example of the difficulties we all face in today's environment. Rock, meet hard place.
Yep. I have to repeat myself on the forum every time I come out with something popular because it has features that can only be created in DS. :X
I recently had a set of products where one was for poser and the other for studio. The studio version sold more than 3 times as well as the poser version. Even so, I was planning to support Poser with Cases for Curiosities till I realized I would have to add a slew of extra polys so the poser version would behave properly. With studio I could do per surface smoothing adjustments and I have never been able to figure out how to do that in Poser. Between going back to add extra poly's and the added set up time I just couldn't see it being logical when you look at time vs money.
With studio I could do per surface smoothing adjustments and I have never been able to figure out how to do that in Poser. Between going back to add extra poly's and the added set up time I just couldn't see it being logical when you look at time vs money.
If your modeling app can do smooth groups then Poser actually has the upper hand when it comes to smoothing of normals, I find myself sometimes adding extra material groups just to get the same smoothing that I get in Poser via smooth groups,
smooth groups require no extra material zones, no extra body groups and no extra geometry, you just choose what angle you want selected faces to be and it gets exported in the OBJ you export for D|S or Poser,
Reading OBJ smooth groups on import would be at the top of my wishlist for D|S features
having said that I don't particularly enjoy working in Poser for various reasons and can see myself eventually just focusing on DAZ Studio, On the few occasions I've made D|S only items I noticed no loss at all in amount of units sold.
I admit to having not a clue in the world if Hex can do that. And the truth is I like being able to make the adjustments to smoothing in studio so that I can get a different look on some objects just by lowering it or turning it off vs increasing it. Truth is I am almost always more comfortable working with the surface tab than just about anything else in studio.
Most venders that still support V4 & or Poser aren't here ,there at Renderosity ,runtime or somewhere else.
most stuff sold there are for V4 & Poser.
if I sold a Poser V4 out fit I'd expect sells to be 90% at Renderosity & 10% at DAZ.com
if I sold a DAZ V6 out fit I'd expect sells to be 90% at DAZ.com and 10% at Renderosity
If I want free stuff I go to the free stores.
If I want V4 Poser stuff I go to the V4 Poser stores
If I want DAZ Studio V6 stuff I come here
I like to be able to use resources in both applications, and have been disappointed with some products where I thought I could just create the companion files myself (or just use the importer). In other cases, this worked out. I have stayed away from some DS-only products for this reason and will try to pay more attention to it. But the safe thing to do is likely to just buy stuff elsewhere.
Looking at it from the customer side... I am a DS user mostly, and when I go to other shops (like the one that starts with an R), I often see "Poser only". I as well ask myself, why don't those vendors do a DS version, too? As, (from my limited customer-point-of-view) it certainly would not be too difficult for a Poser content creator to make their items DS compatible, right? And they could even sell more by making it compatible to both, rather than Poser only...
Still, it is not done by the vendor, probably for the same reasons that vendors here at DAZ store make their choice in content creation and compatibility.
I sometimes feel frustrated about it, because the product looks cool and I would love to have it in my library. Alas, no DS support, no sale.
In the end, with applications so different, it will be impossible to support both. The devide between content that can be used on both apps will be there, unless, as someone pointed out, the technical differences get wiped out. But I don't see that happening. So, for me, this means I do shop mostly at the shop which has vendors that support my application of choice, which is at the moment, DAZ store. I guess that for Poser only users, it will be similar, just that they will wander off to other shops which have more Poser-supporting vendors.
At some point, with diverging software, it's inevitable. Kind of like MAC and IBM machines back in the old days.
As a long time Poser user, and I am sure many other Poser users feel the same way with DAZ as you do with Renderosity, which directly coralates with what the PA's are saying about Poser sales here. With the differences in the programs becoming larger I can see fewer vendors offering products that are compatable. I used to spend 60/40 split of my 3D budget here at DAZ but since the differences between the programs has started to widen, my spending is now 85/10/5 between Rendo/RDNA/DAZ. Nothing against DAZ, the PA's or the programs, but thats just the way of the world. You go where you get the best deals and selection for your Dollar.