Poser support being run down?
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If DAZ has the superior car..... why are they selling it for $0. Its obvious DAZ is investing heavily in DAZ Studio in every part of it (except documentation:)... so the fact they are willing to lose alot of money by giving the software away instead of selling it begs the question... is it just to enlarge the market for their content... if that was the case only offer the basic version for free. That they are giving away all versions (I guess now there is only one pro version) seems to suggest... at least to me... that they want to eliminate Poser as the major 3d hobbyist software. Why else are they willing to lose $400 on every free version of DAZ Studio they give away. Smith Micro is not even focused on 3d ... it is just a sideline software..they have some server or whatever main business.... they can't give Poser away for free... it makes no business sense for them.
I think one big area DAZ Studio is missing out on is in the professional world. For example, in Vue you can run Poser and Vue at the same time and make adjustments on the fly in Poser that are reflected back in Vue. That's assuming you have enough memory to run both. But think about how powerful that can be -- no need for a scene in Poser, just the figure, etc. Vue's support for DAZ Studio boils down to importing Collada files (or the traditional Wavefront). It would be great if Vue and DAZ Studio had a similar level of integration. Though, I would just be happy with a version of Reality that would export out to Vue (I know, the lighting is different, etc. but having a tool to handle converting materials, etc. would be great). I suppose an alternative may be to create a sky dome or OBL of a Vue scene and use that in DAZ Studio (especially handy for Reality). Another area is Mar-Com departments at companies, which seem to favor Poser. Maybe DAZ should create a low cost "DAZ Studio Mar-Com edition"?'
This has been an interesting thread. The truth is, I do not use Poser that much compared to DAZ Studio, so maybe it's time to stop upgrading to the next release of Poser, buying the Poser version of plugins, etc.
Agreed. The formula is simple. More free downloads, more potential customers. You make more money on content than app sales. So, give the app away for free, and sell the content. It's common practice. EG - All these free to play games are free to play, but you pay for the additional content etc. Same strategy. If you compare download numbers on a lot of these things, the free to play games download numbers are in the millions, compared to only a few thousand for paid for ones. Now, out of those millions, think how many potential customers there are. So yes, Daz might be losing up money on giving the app away, but the content sales makes up for that loss. SM's problem is they cannot give Poser away because they have next to no content that sells in a manner that will cover the expense of giving Poser away for free.
Also I don't think Daz's focus is to eliminate Poser, but simply to generate more revenue. If they really wanted to kill off Poser, they wouldn't even bother with creating DSON. If Poser is dying in the process, well, that is SM's problem and business model that they have to improve if they want to keep their side of things viable in this market.
Doesn't matter if it is made a sticky lol. Some people refuse to believe anything DAZ or it's PA's say over at other sites. We have said this exact thing over and over and got crucified for doing so lol. Some people will just believe what they want to believe. Apparently it is illegal to point fingers at SM in any way. :lol:
Thank you Zev. I see exactly what you describe all the time here and it drives me nuts.
I guess even implying fault may also be illegal.... :roll: lol
This thread is about support for Poser from content providers, and about the practicalities of making content cross-platform. It isn't a rerun of the irresolvable debate over which is the better application.
I'm not sure if DAZ really wants Poser to die off. Poser has more street cred in Mar-Com at businesses and with the high end 3D software makers. But how many of them use content from DAZ? Lose Poser, and maybe nothing replaces it at some of these places. And the flame wars about which is better show that people really care about both Poser and DS, so having completion generates its own form of visibility. And don't forget that DAZ still sells the older generations. So, e.g. for those Mar-Com departments that buy Poser as a matter of course may also buy M4 and V4. Keep in mind that at this point, sales of the older generations are pretty much pure profit.
Also, let's not forget about Hexagon and Bryce. Bryce is obviously still around because content for it still sells. And Hexagon.. Not as sure about that one, but I guess it gives them a cheap and easy to learn model creation app (vs. Carrera). That's the interesting one -- I guess it's so cheap that it fills in the gap between Blender and the really expensive apps.
Anyway, I have a feeling what happens to Poser will be up to SM. I do not think DAZ is intentionally trying to kill it off, it's just that SM is making some interesting decisions.. And maybe they are resting on their laurels to a certain extent (i.e. Mar-Com and the pro 3d industry) and will wake up one day to realize that DS can compete well enough feature wise that those Mar-Com departments will switch to the cheaper DAZ Studio.
I guess I should open an enhancement request with e-on for better integration with DS in Vue. Apologies to anyone who just spit coffee all over their monitor.... ;)
HOW could anyone forget Bryce. I try reminding them every time I post, and it does appear that I post a few times :coolsmirk:
Don't think DAZ want's to eliminate anyone off the market, but their give-away-software-make-them-pay-for-content strategy does seems succesful. My spendings moved elsewhere (solely Poser user here), so I do feel a bit deserted, but I was probably replaced by gazillions of DS-only customers, so the company didn't really suffer, and someone else is earning on my content needs, so everyone is happy.
Edited for grammar errors. You can't prepare Christmas Eve feast and sit at the compy at the same time ^^
They've been through this before. I actually paid for Daz Studio Advanced quite a few versions ago. I assume they tried it and decided it wasn't worth it for the money they got from Advanced and Professional versions compared with content sales.
It does make a certain kind of sense. One thing about content sale is it gets spread out so you don't notice how much you are spending. I'm always thinking I should buy less stuff, but there's always that nice outfit or that great set, and it doesn't really cost that much. I would hesitate at paying $400 in one go but I dread to think how much I spend a bit at a time on content.
And I don't think they are trying to eliminate Poser. After all, they give away the Poser DSON importer for free and this lets you use most of their best content in Poser. As long as they are giving away Daz Studio, Poser is not competition for them but there might be an extra market in people are committed to using Poser.
HOW could anyone forget Bryce. I try reminding them every time I post, and it does appear that I post a few times :coolsmirk:
Ah Bryce! My Bryce installation has been sadly neglected recently, which is a pity since I have always enjoyed using it. Maybe I'll find time over the holiday period to do a Bryce scene or two, and there is a lovely Bryce holiday freebie to provide inspiration.
Another reason to give DAZ Studio Advanced and Pro away for free is it level sets the features. It's probably easier for tech support to deal with -- no more checking if someone has the normal or pro version. And content developers know what features everyone has available. And if you needed Advanced or Pro for 64-bit (cannot remember anymore), then that could have been a factor, since it was already clear that 64-bit was becoming more and more relevant. That almost seems too prescient of them, but think about how long ago they started developing Genesis before it shipped. Thinking a year or two out suddenly sounds believable, and it's pretty clear 64-bit matters for moderately complex scenes. There's also only one product to market, no confusion for first time customers, etc.
Actually, I think the real reason there is only one version is no more meetings to discuss what features belong in which one, what the pricing should be, and no customers complaining about e.g. auto-fit being the only difference between the basic and advance versions, and fun things like that. There's probably a lot of truth to that -- if selling content is your core business, why alienate some of your customers, confuse other ones, etc.?
While I'm rambling here, if everyone has the pro version then the more people may try their had at creating content. And maybe there is a way to tap into the pro tools for products. Or just some new tricks that regular users can use to accomplish something (like using a pro tool feature instead of auto-fit). Anyway, happy holidays!! Off to figure out what to remove from cart so I can avoid bankruptcy!! ;)
Well, crap. I wish I'd thought of that five years ago. XD All this time I've been manually copying from a DIM directory to a separate one that I actually use so I can have subcategories (for e.g. fantasy clothing, contemporary clothing) that don't include our vanity folders.
Personally I use categories and love it now I actually have it close to set up. No hunting for poses in separate places as they are a folder within the folder for the item for example hair\short\alexios\mats.
I recently bought Poser and find I really miss this function in Poser they do have a favorites function but that isn't as powerful.
So if I understand this right, basically no matter what I do I will end up with multiple runtimes? I installed all of of my content into one runtime in Poser to keep from having to jump back and forth between them ... Please don't take this as bashing DS but this fighting multiple runtimes that are needed to use both Poser and DS items is not something that I am really not wanting to fight in DS. Is there no way to use just a single runtime? I use a single runtime and I organise it how I want it inside DS in the categories section. It's really easy to set it up when you search for new content you can right click on the folder and create a category for it where you want it to go. I sometimes with things that get used by more than one character(like clothing as I have converted a lot of stuff) copy the materials into the folder where I have saved the converted item. Very easy to maintain once it is set up. But like someone else said make sure you regularly update the userdata.
DAZ is not Ford, DAZ is Exxon :lol:.
I am a Poser user and it's really sad for me, that vendors like First Bastion or SoulessEmpathy don't support Poser any more. I use Poser because I only have a laptop and I need network rendering if I want to make images with IDL (UBERLight in DAZ). Poser's Render Qeue makes it really easy to use network rendering. If DAZ would have something like that I think I would use DAZ Studio too.
Have you tried DS 4.8? They have added network rendering to it, though I'm not certain if that is what you are looking for.
Also: http://www.daz3d.com/batch-render-for-daz-studio-4-and-rib is that what you meant?
Have you tried DS 4.8? They have added network rendering to it, though I'm not certain if that is what you are looking for.
Also: http://www.daz3d.com/batch-render-for-daz-studio-4-and-rib is that what you meant?
The Iray cloud feature may not be what is wanted, and uses a different render engine anyway. Of course, DS being free it is possible to shunt the render off to another machine or to use the batch render script as you say.
http://www.daz3d.com/batch-render-for-daz-studio-4-and-rib And her store is on sale today.. It should show up 30% off in the cart.
I'm over complaining about lack of Poser support... that is a losing battle.
But for these non Genesis/Genesis 2 products.. these environments like First Bastion's that are only coming as duf files now. What is the best way to get them to Poser yourself?? ... Create the Poser Companion files yourself, use collada export?, export the scenes as Cr2?, or export the obj s themselves. I know you have to figure out the shaders yourself maybe using the included maps or look for rock, sand, water shaders to substitute.
When I first started the hobby I was a poser guy through and through. When genesis came out it was really attractive and I made the swap. At first it was a bummer, but now I VERY rarely use Poser. Although I really miss the cloth room. Like a lot.
This doesn't surprise me although I'd love to see actual numbers (and their source).
I migrated her to Dazville after much frustration with with the Poserverse. Smith Micro treats Poser as nothing but a money pit and the forums are awash with infantile arguments and personal attacks.
I feel that Daz is still what Poser used to be, a fun hobby administered by folks who care about it with dedicated and loyal fans just having fun playing with dolls.
Please don't screw it up Daz, this is more fun than gaming.
I do not believe you are fully accurte with the statement about Poser users. A lot of Poser users no longer shop here due to the lack of support and that would give the apearance of fewer Poser users in the marketplace. In a way what you sayabout the market is true, but that doesn't honestly reflect on the true number Poser users.
I do not believe you are fully accurte with the statement about Poser users. A lot of Poser users no longer shop here due to the lack of support and that would give the apearance of fewer Poser users in the marketplace. In a way what you sayabout the market is true, but that doesn't honestly reflect on the true number Poser users.
Sounds like they have created a self fulfilling prophecy then,if users stop buying Poser content sold through DAZ then the PA's only see Poser sales falling.and we have.
My day today was supposed to be spent setting up a new set for Poser..but I opened it..looked at it for a minute and just had to admit I have zero desire to use the program anymore,it's been such a long time since I actually enjoyed working in Poser,that It's become a chore and that's not something I want from this job.
so I think in a couple months I'll release UrbanSprawl3 in both DAZStudio and Poser flavours, but that will likely be the final Poser model I release,it's something big and shiny for you guys to remember me by :)
and this means I can focus on one program and make the DAZ Studio sets even better,with more options and more detail, because you can do a lot more if your only focused on one app.
so if you guys want to see future Stonemason content in Poser it's time to start bugging smith micro to create some importers or something,,something along the lines of the pz3 importer,or the cr2 importer..or the pp2 importer that DAZ Studio have made ,I've seen DAZ bend over backwards to get Poser content working in DAZ Studio but seen absolutely nothing from smith micro with regard to having DAZ Studio content work in Poser...its the programme that just never seems to evolve.
Cheers
Stefan
Greetings,
I do not believe you are fully accurte with the statement about Poser users. A lot of Poser users no longer shop here due to the lack of support and that would give the apearance of fewer Poser users in the marketplace. In a way what you sayabout the market is true, but that doesn't honestly reflect on the true number Poser users. At the risk of fanning completely unnecessary flames, I will dispute that.The basis? DAZ gets a great deal more traffic than Renderosity or RDNA. Specifically if you poke around at the various sites that estimate traffic, DAZ3D gets almost twice Renderosity's traffic, and 'rosity gets twice RDNA's traffic.
If there are significantly more people coming here, than going to RDNA and 'rosity combined, than it's entirely possible that the TAM (total addressable market) has shifted away from Poser users. Now a significant portion of folks going to those other two sites are DAZ Studio users (I plan to buy a few things this weekend at 'rosity, in fact) and a significant portion of the folks coming to DAZ3D are Poser users, but if the purchasing market for Poser items here is significantly less, and this is the 3D Marketplace getting the most traffic...it has real implications about the total market.
ALL THAT SAID, I don't think DAZ is running down Poser support. I think they are doing their best to innovate, and build cool new stuff, but they're continuing to support and deliver content that works as best as it can on Poser, given the platform's differences. I imagine Smith Micro wants the situation to improve as well; very few of the items sold on any of the stores really push Poser's new capabilities.
-- Morgan
Sounds like they have created a self fulfilling prophecy then,if users stop buying Poser content sold through DAZ then the PA's only see Poser sales falling.and we have.
My day today was supposed to be spent setting up a new set for Poser..but I opened it..looked at it for a minute and just had to admit I have zero desire to use the program anymore,it's been such a long time since I actually enjoyed working in Poser,that It's become a chore and that's not something I want from this job.
so I think in a couple months I'll release UrbanSprawl3 in both DAZStudio and Poser flavours, but that will likely be the final Poser model I release,it's something big and shiny for you guys to remember me by :)
and this means I can focus on one program and make the DAZ Studio sets even better,with more options and more detail, because you can do a lot more if your only focused on one app.
so if you guys want to see future Stonemason content in Poser it's time to start bugging smith micro to create some importers or something,,something along the lines of the pz3 importer,or the cr2 importer..or the pp2 importer that DAZ Studio have made ,I've seen DAZ bend over backwards to get Poser content working in DAZ Studio but seen absolutely nothing from smith micro with regard to having DAZ Studio content work in Poser...its the programme that just never seems to evolve.
Cheers
Stefan
That is a shame, you, along with AntFarm, DZFire, Midnight Stories and a few others that still put out great Poser friendly items are one of the reasons I still shop here. As more and more PA’s stop making sets that are Poser ready without the DSON importer, it is obvious that fewer Poser users will spend money here in the store, that is just the natural progression of business.
I am a little surprised by some of your comments here and it makes me wonder. :( When I was in school and took economics I was taught about supply and demand and making your customers happy, so to just ignore or abandon a whole section of your consumer base is really baffling to me, granted as a Poser user I have asked for updates to the program and have voiced my opinion of wishing that Poser would bite the bullet and adopt DAZ’s weight mapping so that Genesis figures could be utilized natively in Poser, but to tell me that I need to bug SM to create something because you are going to no longer support the native use of your items is really … mindblowing. :(
it is partly an economical decision though, since I don't get much return from Poser content then I'm just spending valuable time on something I'm not getting much from.I cant give you the numbers but it is a staggeringly small amount of sales coming from Poser users.
The basis? DAZ gets a great deal more traffic than Renderosity or RDNA. Specifically if you poke around at the various sites that estimate traffic, DAZ3D gets almost twice Renderosity's traffic, and 'rosity gets twice RDNA's traffic.
If there are significantly more people coming here, than going to RDNA and 'rosity combined, than it's entirely possible that the TAM (total addressable market) has shifted away from Poser users. Now a significant portion of folks going to those other two sites are DAZ Studio users (I plan to buy a few things this weekend at 'rosity, in fact) and a significant portion of the folks coming to DAZ3D are Poser users, but if the purchasing market for Poser items here is significantly less, and this is the 3D Marketplace getting the most traffic...it has real implications about the total market.
ALL THAT SAID, I don't think DAZ is running down Poser support. I think they are doing their best to innovate, and build cool new stuff, but they're continuing to support and deliver content that works as best as it can on Poser, given the platform's differences. I imagine Smith Micro wants the situation to improve as well; very few of the items sold on any of the stores really push Poser's new capabilities.
-- Morgan
Not much into flaming it only ends up causing issues that are counterproductive. I would however like to ask you just how much of that traffic you are claiming to say DAZ gets is solely related to the forums? I very rarely go to the store anymore unless a PA I still support has an item listed. I DO however visit the forums several times a day for threads I am a part of. I shop Rendo and RDNA regularly and spend an exponentially larger amount of money on those sites with fewer visits. For example I just purchased items at Rendo and RDNA in the last 3 days, in that time I visited RDNA once and Rendo 8 times, during those visits I didn’t visit their forums. In that same amount of time I visited the DAZ forums at least 25 times and did not visit the store at all. So the numbers you are stating can be very misleading unless you can show which numbers are for the store and which numbers are for the forums.
I second that. As someone who has probably (okay, DEFINITELY) purchased a new car's worth of content since I started this hobby, it's very interesting to see the mechanics from the other side of the cash register. I've dabbled in content creation. I'd like to do more. I've barely taken a wobbly baby step as a vendor and I can't appropriately state how much work is involved, so I'm very interested in seeing how some of the "big names" manage their businesses.
As for program-specific content, I can see why a PA would opt to do one over another. And, more and more, I can see why that program would be Daz Studio. I'm not much of a seller, but I'm a very enthusiastic consumer. (Don't tell my fiance that. It's easier to hide a closet of virtual shoes than a closet full of real ones, so he's blissfully unaware of my fashion addiction...) But this brings me to my point: we're hearing from top sellers about why they create content. And they create platform-specific content because people buy them. I am the poster child for the Poser/DS content marketing decision that PAs are currently facing. I think my own choices are a very good reflection of the market as a whole.
I began as a Poser user. Most people at the time were also Poser users. DS was in its infancy and DAZ made their money with Poser content. Over time, DS developed new features and strategies -- dynamics, a comprehensive free product without need for extensive plugins, etc. By the time DS3Pro was going away, DS was a respected, if still minority software platform. And then Genesis happened. And SM screwed up. No idea how they managed to forget that nobody (okay, almost nobody) uses the Poser People, but they did and it was a terrible decision. DAZ's figures and content have always been superior to anything Curious Labs/e-frontier/Smith Micro have ever come up with. And now, the things which used to magnetically pull me toward opening Poser have become... less magnetic. Poser dynamics are superior simply by virtue that ANYTHING can be draped/blown around in Poser (even if it isn't always pretty) as opposed to DS's one-choice-only dynamic content technology. And I still prefer the material system in Poser, but I'll admit this is just habit and personal preference. For me, most of the time that Poser "won" it was because it rendered faster. With the integration of IRay, DAZ has blown the top off that reason.
My content purchases reflect my software usage. (Duh. I wouldn't buy DS content if I didn't use it! Even *I* am not that addicted to content...) More and more, I have to ask myself -- why am I purchasing content that utilizes technology originating in 2006 (when V4 came out)? DSON is clunky. It just is. I don't use DS-native figures in Poser unless I have a very compelling reason to. It would be very, very different if my hundreds of gigabytes of V4 content didn't work with Genesis/G2F. But it does. And if Genesis is my character of choice, then I use DS. And, since 99% of my renders involve people, then using a DS-only prop doesn't bother me because I've already chosen to use DS. And, remember, I'm a veteran user. If I was just dropped into this market and saw that I can get a free program that offers native support for superior characters and an amazing content marketplace generated by very talented PAs AND is backwards-compatible with older figures... or I could shell out anywhere from $70 to $500 for a program that has some nice features, but is lacking native support for the figures with the newest (and arguably best) technology? Um... Yeah.
Reminder: I *adore* Poser. I will continue to buy it because it's like an extra appendage to me and I'm experienced enough to get just about any content to work in either program in an adequate fashion, given enough motivation. I still buy some V4 stuff because there is still beautiful V4 content out there. And when I use V4, I use Poser. But PAs are already seeing (in their sales figures) what I'm seeing in my workflow. The technologies differ enough that it's becoming harder to create multi-platform support for products in the same way that it's harder to use DS products in Poser. Studio offers native support for the best human figures. Autofit kicks the pants off of the Fitting Room. DS now has a GPU-based, unbiased render engine built into it's core program -- no plugin required. And I worry that, if SM doesn't read the writing on the wall, that there will soon be no Poser for PAs to ponder when deciding what to create.
If Poser managed to fix their support for DAZ figures (and this is unlikely because basic technology would need to be ripped out of the program and recreated from the ground up) the entire market would change. Vendors would, once again, find it easy to create props and figures for both programs with an acceptable amount of extra effort. DAZ would also be happy, I'm certain, because die-hard Poser users would now be free to buy DS content with giddy abandon again. As for me, I use both. I love both. I'd like to shake TPTB at SM and demand to know what the heck they were thinking when they declined to incorporate support for Genesis in P9/Pro2012, but that's beside the point.
I hope this ramble didn't wander too far from the original topic. But what I'm reading from PAs meshes EXACTLY with what I'm experiencing as a consumer, so I thought it was relevant.
I've had good luck with creating PoserCFs and this is probably the easiest method for me, but then you have to deal with DSON, which makes my head hurt, so I generally avoid this for props. CR2 export is usually my first choice, but can be resource heavy. Obj export is sort-of a last resort because you lose SO MUCH data about your models. In all cases, you still have to revamp all materials, but that's a skill that's fairly easy to learn if you've got a little patience.
Thanks Karibou!!