Poser support being run down?
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Out of curiousity... can you give a ratio, perhaps? Like, out of 10 sales, 1 is Poser?
I second that. As someone who has probably (okay, DEFINITELY) purchased a new car's worth of content since I started this hobby, it's very interesting to see the mechanics from the other side of the cash register. I've dabbled in content creation. I'd like to do more. I've barely taken a wobbly baby step as a vendor and I can't appropriately state how much work is involved, so I'm very interested in seeing how some of the "big names" manage their businesses.
Very well said!
Yes, Poser has some superior features. Studio can easily counter with some superior features. To me the scales have heavily tipped to the features within Studio, especially with the addition of Iray. I see the spread widening so far as compatibility is concerned. You could blame DAZ for this, but really, that is asking DAZ to stop bringing us new technology. I for one hope that never happens. But hey, the Studio interface clicks with how my brain works and I'm sure that causes at least some bias.
I often times wonder why these conversations seem to be prevalent in the DAZ forums instead of the Smith Micro forums? Shouldn't Smith Micro be the one working to have native support for other figures/content if it is important to their customers?
When I'm working on Poser conversions, I don't enjoy it. In some cases, I feel like I'm cutting the quality of a product to make it work. The amount of time spent to do those conversions could be spent on my next project, which means the DAZ community gets more variety a bit sooner. I also worry that maybe the Studio users are carrying the cost burden for the time it takes to do those conversions.
Anyway, great post Karibou!
I use both Poser and Studio as plugins for Carrara. (Minority status, I know). Therefore, I just assume that I will have to tweak the shaders of most vendors' items. But just like vendors make a money/time/hassle decision in deciding which programs to support, we customers make a money/time/hassle decision in deciding which content to buy, and from which store. I generally find that I experience less hassle from vendors that include Poser specific support even though I don't usually render in Poser.
I very much prefer Poser cloth dynamics to Carrara's soft body or Daz opti. So if I am going to use a Genesis based character, I save it out of Studio as both a duf and a cr2. Then if I want a draped clothing look, I can use DSON to load it in Poser so that cloth can be draped. The pose/animation is saved to Posers runtime library. For stills, the clothing item is exported as an obj, then reimported in Poser and saved to the runtime library as a static prop but now posed. For animations, there are sequence obj plugins for the prop. I then fire up Carrara, load the Genesis from the Duf file, apply the pose from the poser pose runtime folder, and load the saved posed cloth from the poser prop runtime folder. Hooray! The draped cloth item fits the posed Genesis or Genesis 2 figure.
I'm sure Studio users could do something similar.
In any case, my point is that for me, it is not either Poser or Studio. I use each to some degree. But I do pay attention to whether a product has Poser support even though I don't usually render in Poser. It is usually a signal that I will have less hassle adjusting the shaders. And going forward, i am confident that my workflow will continue to change as development of various programs evolves. So maybe Studio 5 will allow drape of custom objects, along with features of Hexagon and Bryce, and my workflow will be only Studio - but I expect it more likely that I will continue to use multiple programs.
Out of curiousity... can you give a ratio, perhaps? Like, out of 10 sales, 1 is Poser?
Again out of curiousity :- how can you state that you get a minor amount of return from Poser users when you don't make Poser specific products but include Poser support in the main product? Poser users just buy the main product, as do Bryce and Carrara users who do not use DS. Just wondering. :coolsmirk:
There's another factor that's causing the swing to DS-only products. Many of the newer PAs who sell content at DAZ started out with DS and have never used Poser at all.
I can understand someone who uses DS not wanting to pay for Poser, and spend months learning it, especially if the return isn't justified. People forget that content creators have to learn all these different techniques, from modelling to texture making, and it can take up huge amounts of time.
I started with Poser, and since I mainly make props, it's not that difficult for me to keep on supporting both Poser and DS. But even so, there are times when I want to bang my head against the wall and throw Poser out the window. So many things which are simple in DS become a real pain in Poser.
Example? Recently, I was making a photo album with turning pages and decided to try LIE (Layered Image Editor) to place the photos on the pages. Works really well, and means the user can insert their own photos and position them where they want. But..... try doing the same thing in Poser! After days of fruitless attempts, I gave up. And the end result is that I've abandoned the LIE files, and gone with simple textures which work in both programs. This means the user will have to go to Photoshop to make up their own pages. There may be a way to do this in Poser, but I'm damned if I can figure it out. If Poser concentrated on some of the useful little add-ons that DS has, it would make a big difference. (Btw, I haven't entirely given up on this yet. I've been asking around and I'm hoping to find a way to get superimposed images to work properly in Poser).
I'll try to continue supporting Poser for as long as I can. I just wish SM would get a clue and look at all the little things that make DS so much easier to use.
mac
Again out of curiousity :- how can you state that you get a minor amount of return from Poser users when you don't make Poser specific products but include Poser support in the main product? Poser users just buy the main product, as do Bryce and Carrara users who do not use DS. Just wondering. :coolsmirk:
You have to ask yourself how many Poser users have versions that support DSON? How many of those users use DSON (most of them are anti-DSON), and how many Poser users shop here. Add them all up and the number in comparison to Daz customers are very low. Now, this may vary at other storefronts where more Poser users shop, but we not going to sell elsewhere just to prove this lol. What we see is the trend here at the Daz store, and that is the one we are focused on because this is where we sell. To add, I had DS only products sell more than ones with both DS and Poser support, confirming that Poser support does not really impact sales in any significant way. If it did, it would have leap-frogged the DS only products in sale numbers since it supported two markets.
The main problem is that SM has too many different versions of Poser and not all of their user base is on the same page or has a version that support content sold here in the current format. It's way to fragmented, resulting in an even smaller market. This does not only impact Daz, but SM themselves because if a product is designed to utilize features only found in later versions, it will only appeal to those users. It is impossible to give an actual ratio because certain content types only appeals to certain users. What you can only go by is the trend that we are seeing, that here at the Daz store, there are way more DS customers than Poser ones.
Again out of curiousity :- how can you state that you get a minor amount of return from Poser users when you don't make Poser specific products but include Poser support in the main product? Poser users just buy the main product, as do Bryce and Carrara users who do not use DS. Just wondering. :coolsmirk:
You have to ask yourself how many Poser users have versions that support DSON? How many of those users use DSON (most of them are anti-DSON), and how many Poser users shop here. Add them all up and the number in comparison to Daz customers are very low. Now, this may vary at other storefronts where more Poser users shop, but we not going to sell elsewhere just to prove this lol. What we see is the trend here at the Daz store, and that is the one we are focused on because this is where we sell. To add, I had DS only products sell more than ones with both DS and Poser support, confirming that Poser support does not really impact sales in any significant way. If it did, it would have leap-frogged the DS only products in sale numbers since it supported two markets.
The main problem is that SM has too many different versions of Poser and not all of their user base is on the same page or has a version that support content sold here in the current format. It's way to fragmented, resulting in an even smaller market. This does not only impact Daz, but SM themselves because if a product is designed to utilize features only found in later versions, it will only appeal to those users. It is impossible to give an actual ratio because certain content types only appeals to certain users. What you can only go by is the trend that we are seeing, that here at the Daz store, there are way more DS customers than Poser ones.
I do know what you are saying. I make no secret of which program I use. Poser (or DS) are both merely a way of getting props and figures into my scenes, not an actual part of my render process and never have been. There are a surprising number of us still around, and most Carrara users are of the same ilk I think. I wouldn't say I was anti-DSON, but I do not see why I should have to update my Poser and then use a 2nd program (DSON importer) in order to use Props in my program of choice. It is the fact that props sold with only DS support have no geometry files which are usable by people like me. If there were OBJs included with the product, then most of us could, and probably would, still use them as DAZ 3D content is far superior to most sold elsewhere. However the extra steps needed in order to use the newer products is very off putting. Figures and characters are a different thing, the split has happened and DS and Poser figures (newer ones) are no longer directly usable in both. Props though, in the main, should be neutral. BTW please note that I am posting here solely in my alter ego as a Bryce user.
Much of the point that I was trying to make about my usage of Poser/Studio/Carrara is stated much more clearly by this Bryce user. :coolsmile:
Another point raised that I would also be curious about is the attribution of sales to programs. People who render in Bryce or Carrara purchase content that is described as Poser or Studio content. Just because I purchase some Studio-targeted sets here at Daz for use in Carrara does not mean that the Studio-targeted sets are purchased by a Studio user, or that I am not also purchasing Poser compatible sets from R'osity, or here at Daz, or elsewhere.
From an individual PA's perspective, I get that the reason why relative sales don't fall much here at Daz does not matter as long as the amount is too small to justify the work of making things Poser compatible. But that doesn't mean the number of Poser users, or people who use Poser-compatible products in other programs, is actually declining. It just means that they would be browsing elsewhere. That can become self-reinforcing (which is not always a bad thing).
Anyway, does anyone know to what degree, if any, Daz maps the content purchases by Bryce/Carrara/Blender/... renderers, as opposed to just Studio and Poser?
From a customer perspective its not only a decision if I want to purchase a product its also WHEN I will purchase it. The way these store promotions and coupons often double or triple up (often by mistake like the recent selective April Showers coupon) .... you can either do an instant buy at 30% off when a product comes out or wait till you will have a chance down the road to get the product at up to 75-85% off - that wait is getting shorter and shorter with all the DAZ complicated and daily sales promotions.
What goes into this when-to-purchase decision for me includes not only the Wow factor but also the utility of the product. Removing Poser support (direct Poser files or companion files/Poser materials) removes alot of utility of the product esp. a prop set so either the Wow factor has to be high (like 95% of StoneMason's work) or something else...or I wait and pick up the product later in its life cycle as part of a big discount.
So dropping Poser support may not drop the overall number of sales but it could effect the margin you get from those sales.
All the arguments about supporting multiple software packages sounds good and all UNTIL you have to sit down and do it yourself in a limited amount of time that justifies the return.
If you took a hard look at other brokerages and the volume of new products for primarily studio and the number of sales aimed at studio users there has to be a reason for that. It isn't just for a little variety. Additionally, the volume of sales for poser exclusive products (from what I an other PA's have seen) is indeed about 20% of the total volume of a the same product in a studio version.
Many years ago I saw a poll at a brokerage that had very little Studio support at the time. Even then and there the numbers for poser and studio were about even. And this was when Studio was only in version two and had none of the bells and whistles it has today. Since then SM has had spent far less time and effort in building the user base for Poser while DAZ has done much more advertising and PR. As much as anything that is responsible for user number shifts over the last 10 years. The fact that DAZ gets out there and hustles while SM has pretty much settled for selling new versions to old users primarily. Have some Studio users that moved to Poser yes, but there has also been some shift from Poser to Studio that offsets it. The bottom line about user numbers is without doubt dependent on who draws the most new users into the fold and DAZ has put much more effort into that than SM.
When a product is in intro you see not only see how the product does but you can fairly safely estimate the volume of sales your going to see the product make over time. A winner out the gate stays a winner a dog stays a dog. For the Poser product I did last year the sales were around 20% of those for the studio version. Not only has it not gained ground over time it has fallen further and further behind. No sale is ever going to pump up the volume on it enough to make up.
DAZ3D does not control what happens with Poser. They cannot force SM to make it do things to support the vision DAZ3D has for future figure development. DAZ3D and the PAs who sell here really have their hands tied as to what we can do in Poser and for Poser users as we dont have ANY direct control over it, how it works or how it might work in the future. All SM has to do is make one change that is in "their best interest" and it can break all the work DAZ3D has put into making DSON content work in Poser. And who will be left to pick up the pieces??? DAZ3D and their PAs. So as content creators, we have to choose. Are you going to choose to support a 3rd party software package that neither you nor your brokerage has a say in or can influence?
I smile wryly at the idea that only Poser has multiple versions or legacy issues - while some DAZ Studio users prefer version 3.something or even 2.something over 4.something, and have pretty much exactly the same issues as Poser users over the newer features of DAZ Studio and of Poser (post version 4).
The way I see it goes something like this.
It reminds me of various food items that I have tried when I first noticed them, then they vanished off the shelves and while looking I enquired of store staff only to be told "there was no demand". I've been flummoxed several times that way, because I was right there, demanding the products! But I, by myself, am not enough demand :(
It doesn't much matter at this point what the root cause of the decline of "Legacy" content purchasers is - "Legacy Content" sells less and less, I am told, each year. There isn't, apparently, the demand at this store. By which I mean there isn't the necessary reward for making content that compatible.
PAs putting in extra effort to make things "Legacy" compatible can reduce overall quality and DOES cost extra time (and therefore money). Some have tried to continue with this, and seem to be seeing diminishing returns for doing so. There isn't the demand :(
I'm a Poser user, though I also use Cinema4D, Lightwave, POV-Ray (years ago LOL) and so on and so on. So I am declaring an interest in having "Legacy" compatability (and I prefer DS 3.x to DS 4.x or DS 2.x, personally).
As a Poser user - and asking other Poser users - what are you willing to do to illustrate the demand for Poser products? We want PAs to stretch their necks out and put time and money into the POSSIBLE sales of legacy-compatible products. Is there any way we can do something similar?
I struggle to see how we can. The nearest I can see to a comparable effort is if we all went out and bought some Legacy-compatible PA products, whether we want them or not, just to show that Poser users can and do spend money. To give money specifically to Poser/Legacy-producing PAs. Personally I recommend some prehistoric products, or Digital I sharks (seriously, they're nice. And I don't get any kickback!). and no DAZ Originals, or seriously discounted coupons - because that won't filter money through to the PAs!
But I can't seriously see anyone doing that. I don't plan to. I'm not a rich man by any means, and I've already bought most of what I want to buy. But I hope you seriously consider it - JUST to experience the emotion that results from my suggesting that you spend money on products that you don't need, just to reward the PAs. Because AFAICS that is the nearest you will come to feeling what it likes to be a PA reading requests for "Poser" products.
I see Legacy content being sold here less and less, and I expect that to reduce "demand" for legacy content - which will reduce production. I don't see a solution that doesn't require considerable effort, risk, and cost on both sides - creator and consumer alike. All one side can do, I suspect, is get frustrated.
Personally I've been really really pleased at the effort DAZ themselves put in to making their figures work, by hook or by crook, in Poser - AND I've been pleased at the effort that Smith Micro have actually put in to the same ends. I'm not in a position to compare the amount of effort from each team, but I AM glad that I CAN still use the latest figures from DAZ in the latest few versions of Poser from Smith Micro. Both teams could have ignored the existence of the other, and of their respective customers, but while they haven't done as much as we would like - nor have either of them entirely failed to respond.
Cheers,
Cliff
It all comes down to this -
Smith Micro's handling of Poser is as a product that primarily makes money by selling software and software upgrades. DAZ's handling of DS is as a product that makes money by creating a market for DAZ products. Therefore each new version of Poser has to have some big "upgrade" feature that makes buying it an imperative BUT it also has to maintain complete product compatibility with the last several generations of consumers, so even their biggest jump forward (from 4 to 5) maintained continuity there. DAZ, on the other hand, was able to take a bigger risk in upsetting the status quo given that they've always made a free version of their software available that can use the latest features. For a long time DS and Poser shared a mostly similar marketbase, but now that the new generations of DS products work within the iClone system, I expect you'll see more of a drift to that end of the market.
You're correct, that is a nightmare in Poser. It's possible, but not something you'd want to market your product around. You'd need to insert a color math node into the diffuse slot of your frame and use it to multiply the frame texture with the person's desired image. You'd then need to adjust the u and v offset on the inserted photo until it was in the right place. Someone should make a python script to do this because it would then be user-friendly. I'm certain it could be done with a python script -- but not one written by me because I stuck at python scripting! Even knowing HOW to do a "layered image" in Poser's material room, if I was going to add a photo to your frame prop, I'd do exactly what you said -- go into Photoshop and add the image there.
I think it's worth noting that DAZ would likely have LOVED it if SM had gotten on board with the Genesis technology. DAZ sells content. Their software is free. It had to be one heck of a leap to suddenly commit the future of your business on a technology that a large chunk of your customers wouldn't be able to easily utilize. I give DAZ hearty applause for stepping up the quality of their software in order to keep the heart of their business (i.e., content) alive and thriving.
SMS makes it's money selling software. DAZ makes the lion's share of it's money selling content. When DS was released way back when, TPTB made one statement. DS would remain free so long as content sales supported it's development. Whether this is now the case is unknown. Those who began DAZ and DS are no longer running the show.
One thing SMS made perfectly clear with regards to Genesis was that they were not going to tie their software and it's development to another company's development schedule. Prior to the merger with Gizmoz and the changing of the guard at the top, when DAZ said "soon", everyone knew it would be anything but soon. For those who have been around long enough, remember all the promises made regarding dynamic cloth?
More than. And with the addition of Iray the market is expected to expand further.
Looks like its working great to me
Since all areas have been covered and opinions given and we are just returning to comments that have been stated many times over, we are closing the thread.