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Note: I tried to put the previous concerns in an updated form to focus on the the difference between hardware and software support delays.
I get the impression that the fact that Nvidia is covering multiple areas of the supply chain in this industry may confuse things additionaly.
Step 1: Producing Hardware - GPU production
Opinion A) When the GPU is released the hardware developer should have the drivers ready for all possible usage forms.
Opinion B) It is acceptable that those areas considered less important by the GPU manufacturer are supplied with drivers at a later point.
-> Example: Game Drivers ready at launch, Finalized Cuda 8 Tool Kit followed months later.
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Step 2: Producing Software - Render Software
Opinion I) The render software should be designed in a way that it works with all GPU.
Opinion II) The render software needs to be updated for each new GPU release and it is acceptable that several months pass in the meantime.
-> Example: Otoy released experimental support for Pascal cards after a few weeks, Nvidia Iray 2016.2 was only ready months later.
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I am firmly on opinions A) and I).
This whole situation is challenging to discuss because Nividia is the cause for the delays in both cases, hardware and software support.
- > It should be possible to:
- release hardware and the drivers on launch day for all usage forms.
- create a rendering software that detects all Cuda core devices no matter the generation if the necessary drivers are provided
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It would be acceptable if new GPU would not run at full potential on launch day and in the upcoming months driver updates would adress performance issues.
Basic performance on launch of a new GPU needs to be a goal of any company interested to make GPU rendering "production ready".
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I can understand your point of view. It would be lovely if they could create their software without the hardware its for, but unfortunately you cannot future-proof some huge leaps in technology. That is simply not possible. Nor can drivers be created for something that does not exist yet.
I kinda understand why Nvidia would release the card early though, even if the rendering community would be disappointed (as it is). Imagine if they would just hold the release till they finished iray and distributed the SDK and wait till everyone implements it. You would just buy the ready card later and be happy.
But the Gaming community would be mad. "So you mean this thing was READY a few months ago, and we had to wait so some 3D artists could work with it?!" The gamers who wanted the best GPUs would be disappoitned if not outright mad.
Put yourself in their shoes - imagine there was a new GPU released and ready to reduce your render times BUT you would have to wait for several months to buy the card, because it was waiting to be game-ready.
As a business move - I could also understand Nvidia there. Release the card since its made for gaming and ready for it. Have gamers purchase tons and cash in on the technology. Afterwards work on Iray and CUDA 8 - release your new Quadro card with the now supported Pascal cards when stuff is done.
Can't blame them for that. Even though I wish I could use my 1080 already for Iray...
I'm not entirely clear what the discussion of GPU markets is about, but it seems to have thoroughly run its course and will end now. Thank you.
Do I understand this correctly:
A partner of DAZ3D releases a new graphic card.
Nowhere on the package of the card is any information that it will not work with all software.
The only way to actually be informed about the cards not working in DAZ Studio and Iray are posts on the DAZ3D forum.
And now the official position of DAZ3D on this issue is to ask their customers to stop discussing this topic?
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I am rather under the impression that this topic will have "run its course" when the issue is actually solved.
No, the issue of Iray suport remains - it is the subsidiary discussion we have shut down (without locking the thread as the main topic remains pertinent).
Reading all this about gaming cards vs workstation cards, I compared some Quadro vs GeForce and can't understand why we would want to put a Quadro in a machine instead of a GeForce. Price-wise, the GeForce is better (in most cases, not all) and the specs on the GeForce are generally better as well, more Cuda cores, speed etc. So other than the Quadro usually being a single-slot card vs the GeForce being a dual-slot card, why would a person consider the 'Workstation' cards over the 'Gaming' cards?
Double-precision performance and FP64, usually. This page presents the information better than I can explain -- lack of caffeine this morning: http://arrayfire.com/explaining-fp64-performance-on-gpus/
Wow, that's a really interesting read. Thanks!
So what about the Iray support then, Richard? It is October now.
I think the subsidiary discussions (all of them) in this thread are bourne out of frustration that Iray is not supported yet, and people want to keep this question alive. I started using the Blender Beta a couple of weeks ago because it actually uses my card now, and I wanted to see it render "something", anything really, using the Cuda cores, just to see if they actually work, which they do. Blender is a community supported open source program run by volunteers. Why is Daz Studio not up and running yet, considering you have paid engineers working on this?
Because, just until a few days ago, not all of the needed parts were available from Nvidia...AND THEY STILL AREN'T (the Mac parts are still not released by Nvidia...at least as of last night). Blender can get away with using the beta package...Daz can't. The "When" is more dependent upon what Nvidia is doing than what Daz is doing.
According to the change log Daz does have a privcate beta with the new Iray, but it has only just been released as a non-beta (if it really is non-beta now) and I believe that CUDA 8 for Macs is not in fact available yet. Still, Daz has begun the integration work now that it has the needed code but this is a significant change and I doubt there won't be a public beta, still less a full release, until there has been substantial internal/private checking. Judging by the timing Blender risked a release based on a beta version of the code.
Edit: apaprently the SDK is still beta, so there is not yet a release ready version from which Daz can work.
Who cares about Mac machines? Mac machines make up less than 1% of the market share of computers, (last I looked it was something like .009%), and IBM and the clones based upon IBM make up the rest. Most big companies creating anything for personal computers deal with Apple machines at the very very last, if at all. (The reason that Mac's have far less virus attacks than IBM based machines is because the people who make the viruses rarely bother with Macs because they have such a small presence that only a few die hard artists are likely to be affected). Nvidia is probably not even considering Mac machines at this point, and is likely waiting to see how the SDK works out with the IBM based equipment. If you're waiting for a Mac release for the SDK, then you're basically waiting while other companies test out the mainstream uses before you put your feet in the water. I think that is why Blender.org did what they did in getting "something" out there for the masses, and not worrying about a few straggling Mac users. From the experience I've had with testing things out with Blender, it's as if they've only turned on about 10% of the cards potential, but at least it is turned on enough to be used and tested.
By the by, so far Blender has not encountered any problems with the Beta release in respect to the Cuda 8 SDK, and that is already from thousands of users testing it.
a) no platform wars
b) we have quiote a few Mac users on the forum so I don't think the global proportions (and your figures are a lot lower than the last I saw even there) are useful
c) the Windows SDK is still beta. CUDA is not the same as the SDK - CUDA is not ut for Macs, the SDK is still beta, Daz needs those to change.
The general answer about paid engineers being behind with their work is usually - "some random guy out there who makes code does not have to deal with Quality Assurance and a Boss yelling at him if their code breaks the program". It is usually more complicated than that, but not having to worry about checking your code makes you add features really fast. You're just counting on luck that you didn't mess up. Blender might've been just lucky there.
That said - its more than just using the card itself. I mean, if you think about it - the cards ARE working. It's Iray that needs to be updated for DAZ Studio. Since Blender does not use Iray, well... It might utilize the card's base functions but not the full power of the Pascal Cards.
Anyway.... is there still no estimate on when this update will hit Beta? Even a rough one, like "next month" or "in three months"?
Nothing issued - the problem is that, as I said above, the SDK at least is still beta so the potential exists for show-stopper bugs and of course no-one can say how long an as yet undiscovered bug will take to resolve: there are too many "unknown unknowns" to offer a meaningul estimate, I fear.
I'm not sure about that, once nvidia upodate the CUDA drivers for windows and OSX, all programs that
Cuda 8.0.46 for OSX was released this morning as an auto update, so it must be out of beta. Not usre if it has pascal support as I can't test that.
But you need to remember that CUDA 8 - although a necessary component for Iray - is not the Iray SDK, and the SDK is not yet out of beta.
Why is it not possible to use the Iray 2016.2 Beta SDK and put that in a DAZ Studio Beta version?
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Please be aware that there are people who are not just using DAZ Studio but many other applications that rely on Cuda cores.
If it would not be for DAZ Studio Iray we could have upgraded to Pascal months ago and saved time rendering and editing in other software.
People are shouting at me now on a daily basis how much longer upgrading workstations needs to be delayed.
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So any somewhat Pascal-ready Iray alpha or beta solution DAZ3D ccould provide no matter how unstable would be a better solution than to further delay upgrading.
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I agree with this & think it would be better to have something available rather than nothing.
I would be happy to accept a test version as nothing I do with Daz right now is time sensitive so instability would not matter that much to me , in fact it some of us actually using Daz with with Pascal could help locate problems
CUDA 8, the Nvidia drivers are both 'gold' now...it's Iray that's still not 'done yet'.
Like I said above...a beta version of Blender that relies mostly on the Nvidia drivers can get away with something that Studio can't.
There are open issues with the Iray 2016.1.2 version in the current public beta; I would assume that DAZ will not release a new beta until those issues are fixed - and they may still be open in the 2016.2 Iray.
It's frustrating having to look it up on the net every day for when my GTX 1070 cards will be able to use iray. Especially since this forum thread seems to be the only thing on the web that even touches on the subject.
Daz, just give us a way of knowing when it comes out. A mailing list, a notification, something.
And also, a ball-park rough estimate of a time and date that it might be available would be nice. I bought my cards in August after reading that they should have support in September, now it's October and you're saying the SDK is still in beta; so I can only assume that once the SDK is released, you then START working on integrating pacal support into Daz Studio? Just give us an idea of when it's coming.
We know Daz 3D is already working on integrating it from the change log.
Just another user who purchased two 1080's only to need to put my Titan SC's back in my rig by finding a thread on the topic.
would be nice I'd Daz could guess when it will be supported.
2 days, 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years, never?
More than 2 days less than 2 yrs...
It's not up to Daz as to when it happens...they are working on Nvidia's schedule.
Since you guys are in a partnership with Nvidia with regards to Iray, what time frame does Nvidia give you guys when you ask them for a release date? Do they also say that they haven't got a clue? Are you not asking Nvidia for an answer on our behalf? Or are you just patiently waiting to see if it all happens one day?
We aren't DAZ employees - you'll need to use the 'Contact Us' link down at the bottom of the page to ask that question
Speaking as someone who has done non-trivial software development - there are target dates, and there are actual dates; and target dates get slipped for many reasons. As I mentioned above, some of us have reported issues with Iray 2016.1.2 in the current DAZ Studio public beta; the feedback I got on my report indicated that the issue had been passed to Nvidia, and this was dated just about the time 2016.2 was supposed to come out. I'm making the assumption that this is an actual bug in the Iray code and that Nvidia has not yet fixed it - and we won't see a beta with a newer Iray until this bug is fixed.
And, for the record, I have an open slot in my system waiting for a 1080 just as soon as it becomes useable.
I finally bit the bullet and bought a Nvidia 1070 for $380. I like that it can handle all my monitors and when the new cuda gets sorted I'll have four cards in my system doing Iray. I can feel peoples frustration with Nvidia not placing a premium on Iray rendering for their new cards but these new cards were not released for Iray they were released for VR. It was VR gaming that made Nvidia release the new 10 series cards so we are backseat to the VR gaming graphics crowd. I'm not hurting because I have 3X 6gb 780's (~6000 cuda cores) doing my renders and I don't think I'll see much of an improvement by adding the forth card. I got it because the price was right and I needed a card that had more video ram than my rendering cards so I could run all four cards plus my double monitor setup. On the other hand it should have been stated in big letters on the main page that the 10 series Nvidia cards are not supported on Daz Iray and make it clear that you should not expect it ready until Nvidia gets around to it. I did alot of research when I first looked into buying my first Iray cards and in price vs performance my ~$300 refurbished 6gb 780's were just right. I will probably upgrade to all 1070's if the price is right just to get the extra 2gb of video ram for my renders. Otherwise a Titan X is the best card out there bar none for Iray due to it 12gb of video ram and amount of cuda cores. My only problem is price. They are too expensive right now and I'm willing to wait for the price to come down to my budget.
I'm being patient this new computer I bought with two 1080s is pretty good even though I've copped a bit of flack from some here for it I'm happy I got something that is going to last me many years really well yes I'm a gamer too mostly console but yes I have started on this now and it's great. I can still render in iray via cpu and that is pretty fast lot faster than my laptop been using which is still good with it's 850m card and a lot better than my old desktop which could iray but was slow took days sometimes if it didn't crash which if I remember happened to a few before the bugs got sorted out when we first got iray same with the various versions of daz betas I've had some problems with those till bugs were sorted out. Someone was using a car example before well I'm going to use a game example anyone here hear of a game called No Mans Sky which was released fairly recently with lots of hype leading up to it when it was released it was from what read unfinished extremely buggy updates/fixes were few far between in fact many couldn't play the game because servers were down for long time as well became a very hated product with customers demanding their money back which happened even read there were talks about suing NOW this brings me back to Daz and Iray, sure Daz could just rush out with a new version with iray compatible with the new cards that is still very buggy which would undoubtly end up having heaps of angry hate filled customers jumping down their throats just look at some of the comments for some buggy products released but this'd be worse or they can take a bit of extra time to try and release a fairly bug free stable version yeah I know many would still want a version released now even if it constantly stalled/crashed part of me wants now too but I would rather a fairly stable version that is not going to make me contantly frustrated stressed angry give up on using for a long time of the product
From what we understand nVidia has said, publicly, that Iray support for Pascal cards is proving trickier than expected. They are working on developing the code and fixing bugs found by their testers, including Daz, but clearly if there's a bug they cannot guess at how long it will take to resolve. Daz is not going to release a Public beta until there is a good chance that it is safe for general use - some of you in this thread might be willing to risk encountering serious bugs, but that certainly wouldn't be true for all users.