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Oooh!
Consarn it!
I was wondering what carnsarn was!
I so loved Yosemite Sam. /cough
Carnsarnit, all you young whippersnappers always expecting stuff. :)
Happy now? :D
I believe the culturally correct term is kathooey.
Yes, Genesis was marketed as all that. But sometimes, no matter how much a developer wants a product to live up to it's vision, reality falls short. What you hope for, what you aim for, just doesn't work as well as you hoped. When that happens, sometimes you have to take a step back, look at what you can do to get back on track and move forward.
You're insinuating that the Geneis figure failed to live up to its vision. It did anything but. It was the most versatile figure Daz ever created.
I don't object to moving forward. I object to moving backward, and calling it "forward". If they'd made a true Genesis 2, with all the designed versatility of the original and all the actual improvements they put into G2F, I would have been the first to jump on board. Instead, they threw out the very features of Genesis that made it so useful for me, and the result... well, I've posted enough about that in other places. See my signature if you have any questions.
You're insinuating that the Geneis figure failed to live up to its vision. It did anything but. It was the most versatile figure Daz ever created.
Versatile, yes. But one thing DAZ has been striving for is realism. As a single figure, it seems that they were not able to achieve it as well as they could with creating two separate base meshes.
Is Genesis a failure? No. I didn't say it was a failure. However, if Genesis was the be all end all of figures, why then the need for a second generation?
Yeah, that's exactly my greatest nightmare for this move. People don't have to be equal in their support for both genders again, anymore. So Zev0 can now make support that will help make females on G2F look better. BUT, will he or any other PA be willing to do the same for G2M? V4 got special proportion morphs with S4 Elite that smoothed out and improved certain shapes on the figure. M4 could have used that same support with a D4 Elite, but never got such thing. Millennium Woman 4 got all the love and attention.
Then Genesis came and changed ALL of that. Yeah, reception was pretty "meh" at first, but as support started coming out it started occurring to everyone how much one could do with it, whether it be female, male or child. Of course, male and child support still needed some helping nudges here and there, but it was no where near as dire as it was with Gen's 3 and 4. No more did we have to sit and wait for something to come out to make the characters we needed with the latest DAZ had to offer. We can't do that anymore with G2F. As I said, Genesis's possibilities expanded as content and support came out for it. But this time, no matter how much content and support comes out, they'll still be limited to theirs genders.
Is Genesis a failure? No. I didn't say it was a failure. However, if Genesis was the be all end all of figures, why then the need for a second generation?
Some people didn't think one was really needed because of what they could do with Genesis 1. As even I agree, there's always room for improvement. But I still cannot understand how versatility sacrifices realistic detail especially if you recall everything DAZ explained about V5. V5 has specialized technology in her that optimized the way Genesis would bend and morph with her base, the same for M5 as well. A real Genesis 2 would be a unisex mesh with a 2000+ poly increase, allowing for those better bends, expressions, and details that G2F has. To have me sit here and be told that technology and innovation can't do that is, not only petty, but insults the REAL idea of striving for better things.
Look, as frustrated and disappointed as I am and all I've said about this, I really want to love Genesis 2, I REALLY do! But I can't just sit here and confidentially believe that the support for each figure will be balanced. I can request content, and buy content and show any kind of demand or support for a particular aspect all I want, DAZ and the PA aren't going to treat this equally. I know for a fact that adult women and impractical clothing are going to dominate the DAZ market again as they always have. The huge thing that actually got me into DAZ in the first place was how each genre had it's own gender duo of characters.
So please, DAZ, PAs, I'm BEGGING you, make what you can to really make Genesis 2 worth it. I'm Mr. Gen-X-Gotta-Cach-'em-All, so I will be open-minded, but only if you can make me feel like that I'm not loosing anything, but gaining. Make me get overly-excited for Gen 6 the same way I did for Gen 5. If there's no longer going to be things like unisex and backward support, then make me great content and characters that will have me never want to look back at any of that stuff ever again, because with thing being called "GENESIS 2", I'm really going to expect it...
I hear it a lot that male stuff doesn't sell as well as female-orientated stuff, but I do buy male stuff. my runtime for male figures is twice as high as that for females, so I'm probably not typical in that regard.
For me when it comes to the expense of buying a character, I have to decide what I will use from the packet. Often- for me- I only want the character's skin.
Would there be as much of an issue with the new base female figure if instead of giving it the name Genesis 2 Female they decided to harken back to their Zygote days? Back then, they created not only the P4Man and the P4Woman but the aptly named Nude Young Woman. If DAZ had released it as DS Base 2 Female, would it have caused the same reaction?
I'm pretty sure there would be almost no concern if instead of naming the new figure Genesis they simply named it Victoria 6.
Pretty much, 2000 polygons won't add much to a subdivided mesh of more than 18000 polygons. Cloning Genesis 2 on the Genesis 1 mesh reveals there's very very little difference. If realism was truly what DAZ was after they'd be focusing their efforts on dynamic clothes, hair, and flesh rather than minor tweaks to the mesh.
The step backwards in this line is simply a matter of economics. Genesis 1 was too good. Genesis 2 has virtually no shaping abilities without purchasing them or porting them from the Genesis 1 figure. Genesis 1 on the other hand was easily customizable right out of the box. This made it too easy for the end user to create their own figures rather than buy them. The unimesh design also meant Daz wasn't able to sell male and female versions of the same outfit.
There are a lot of really neat things about the Genesis 2 figure, but Genesis 1 is over all a superior figure.
2000 polygons simply don't justify the new mesh.
I know what you mean .. that is why when Daz offer the complete Male Bundle I grabbed it. because it had everything in it for the male figures. andthere is not much in the way fo sleazy wear for men.
I'm not into sleazy wear much for the female figures either. because sleazy wear just does not fit action scene well. and besides how many Bikini's does a girl need : D bring on the Man stuff
Not if it's a PA who mainly makes fix morphs, then one that doesn't need it is taking away his bread and butter. That wasn't exactly the point I was making though. The customers here have a herd mentality which is also part of why this end up being such a good release for Daz. So If I followed the herd and had a better figure that didn't need fix morphs then why would I buy Zev0's fix morphs he's released in the last month? Wouldn't it be better for Zev0 if Daz waited and allowed more of the customers wanting more realism, to buy Zev0's fix morphs and then release G2 at a later date when the sales of fix morphs has died off more? The people loyal to G1 likely already have zev0's fix morphs which may even add to their anger since they could have applied that money to buying the new figure rather then a fix morph the new figure might not need. Those who are fine with the new figure aren't likely to go back and buy zev0's fix morphs to make g1 more realistic because they can just use G2.
It might have been slightly better for Zev0's sales if the release were put off, sure. I can't say. But that's not a good reason to stop moving forward. Imagine what Zev0 can do with an additional, better figure. The Shape Shift morphs for one are going to be stunning on G2 because there's a better mesh and no pressure at all to develop them thinking of male shapes. They can complement the female figure and the female figure alone, and they are going to be beautiful. Same exact thing goes for any future aging, collision, movement, and fix morphs.
I'm still buying things for Genesis, it's multipurpose, fantastic, and likely will always be my goto figure for creatures until an improved androgynous base figure is developed. It's not being obsoleted for anyone unless their main use is female characters, in which case, well, old figures going obsolete is a good thing - it means technology is looking up.
Of course you can't say, not unless you have some sort of crystal ball that allows you to look into alternate futures. I'm guessing you don't though? Also nobody has said stop moving forward, to think that anyone here has said to stop moving forward suggests a serious lack of reading comprehension or at best a lame attempt to derail the conversation by taking it in an unattended direction. What is being said is to move forward at a slower pace spending more time developing supporting products for figures before moving forward. Also that when moving forward it not be done in a way that leaves customers content to stay with an older figure, feeling abandoned.
You're not "repaying" anyone for anything. Your GenX for Genesis isn't going to stop working.
EDIT: Supporting an entire new figure is not the same thing as a "service release."
Genesis 2 is not really an entire new figure. It's a modification of an existing figure to give it better functionality that was likely missed because the previous figure was also rushed to market and could have benefited from further R&D before being released. Which is very much like a service release.
I seriously doubt that PA's take that much time working on things judging by the rate things are released and not just here but at all stores, Also I recall in another thread a certain PA claiming to have to release three or more things per month just to stay relevant.
I guess you've only been around since V4.2 then because I remember Gen 3 and the first V4 release being met with cries of "Wow this is really great"
As for the likelihood of things this forum is a bad place to ask. Someone asked two days before the release of G2F what the likelihood was that Daz was really releasing V6 and G2 and there was easily 4-5 based on my recollection of people saying there was no way Daz would do that this soon.
Also nobody is saying change is bad just that change that comes too fast is. Would not the site remakes have gone better if Daz spent more time working the kinks out before going live? Wouldn't it have been better if DSON was created at the same time as Genesis so that a whole large segment of the customer base didn't feel alienated? Wouldn't it be better if products were thoroughly and properly quality control checked before release so that fixes for new products don't need to be released within one to two days after the broken item was released? Wouldn't it be better if you actually took time to try to understand where people are coming from rather then lumping them into a group you falsely label as being against change?
No. Genesis 2 Female is a new figure. Victoria 6 isn't a new figure, since she's basically just a single shape and a texture set for G2F, but G2F, which has both a new mesh and new rigging, is definitely a new figure.
For your edification pleasure, from the Urban Dictionary:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=consarnit
1. consarnit Consarnit is a truly wonderful word with the connotation that something negative has just happened. It's essentially the equivalent of saying "Damnit".
Consarnit, I just dropped a hammer on my toe!
From Wiktionary:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/consarn_it
consarn it
Contents
[hide] 1 English 1.1 Etymology
1.2 Interjection
1.3 Anagrams
Etymology
Either from a dialectal variant of concern, or possibly from an alteration of confound, + it.
Interjection
consarn it
1.(dialect, dated) A mild oath.
Anagrams
constrain, introscan, non-racist, nonracist, transonic
The 'ah-hah' moment that really sold me on Genesis was, I think, the lizardian morph... it could be mixed with the female, male and child to create a whole lizardian family. And they could wear the same tunic. This is freakin' awesome. G2F's marginal improvements -- I do like her face -- do not make up for losing that award-winning mix-the-DNA capability. I _might_ buy the G2F basic morphs (probably not until the next time they go on sale), but I'm just not interested in V6 nor her siblings to come.
V6 is just the sort of product that makes me say, "Hey, I should be rendering stuff instead of buying new stuff." Good work, there, Daz.
No. Genesis 2 Female is a new figure. Victoria 6 isn't a new figure, since she's basically just a single shape and a texture set for G2F, but G2F, which has both a new mesh and new rigging, is definitely a new figure.
From one of the V6 promo pages under compatability:
Due to consistency of key body parts and shapes, such as feet users are able to utilize content and accessories intended for not only the Genesis 2 females, but to also leverage their Genesis content through the "auto fit" process.
Doesn't sound like a completely new figure to me but rather the same figure with key improvements made to targeted areas.
Hey here's a novel idea, rather then trying to change my opinion of Genesis 2 why don't you just allow me to express mine without your ridicule and I'll allow you to express your opinion of Genesis 2 without ridicule. M'kay?
Wouldn't that mean Genesis is the same as V4 with targeted improvements, since you can autofit the previous generation's content?
Wouldn't that mean Genesis is the same as V4 with targeted improvements, since you can autofit the previous generation's content?
If I understand correctly, Genesis 2 was built off of the Genesis mesh, with added polys and retopology. [I may be wrong though, I can't find the thread anymore].
Genesis 2 is not really an entire new figure. It's a modification of an existing figure to give it better functionality that was likely missed because the previous figure was also rushed to market and could have benefited from further R&D before being released. Which is very much like a service release.
You may be able to argue that for DAZ, and that DAZ should have updated their female legacy shapes, etcetera to be compatible, but that's as far as the tenuous comparison goes. Genesis is a new figure as far as the PAs, new shapes such as V6, and creating content go. There's no reason at all they should be expected to redo everything for a new figure for free. Especially since their content still works perfectly well with Genesis, just as it was advertised to, exactly as well as it did before G2 appeared, and isn't being superseded by anything.
I guess you've only been around since V4.2 then because I remember Gen 3 and the first V4 release being met with cries of "Wow this is really great"
I, on the other hand, remember a lot of crying about the EXP system, the new surface setup, the lack of a backwards-compatible V3 UV, the way the additional characters were morphs of the same mesh...the only major difference with this release is I'm not seeing outcry about bending. A step forward! ;)
And then DAZ could be merely defining success insofar as the new mesh does *exactly* what they had invisioned it doing, without a swarm of compromises to shift it off the intended target point.
Yeah, that's exactly my greatest nightmare for this move. People don't have to be equal in their support for both genders again, anymore. So Zev0 can now make support that will help make females on G2F look better. BUT, will he or any other PA be willing to do the same for G2M? V4 got special proportion morphs with S4 Elite that smoothed out and improved certain shapes on the figure. M4 could have used that same support with a D4 Elite, but never got such thing. Millennium Woman 4 got all the love and attention.
I think you'll find if you look through the store that most Genesis content was still built and optimized for females. Having a dress that will autoconform to M5 with the straps distorted to rick-rack on the pecs is not that same thing as having male support.
Men generally have less variety in clothes, anyway. I just wish there were more textures for them.
DAZ has been creating/improving figures from existing meshes for years. Stephanie 1 was built from Micheal's mesh. It had Vicki's body shape and rig but used Micheal's UV's. You could put Micheal's textures on Stephanie but the stretching and distortion was horrendous.
The MilGirls were built using Vicki's mesh and the MilBoys were built using the MilGirl's mesh.
All of the Gen 3 may or may not have been built from V3's mesh (I don't remember if that was or was not the actual case).
After as many years as I have been dealing with DAZ, if the newest release has different rigging, different poly and vertex arrangement that requires the purchase of new morph packs, needs new clothing to work out of the box, and makes some change to mapping, it is a new figure.
Pretty much, 2000 polygons won't add much to a subdivided mesh of more than 18000 polygons. Cloning Genesis 2 on the Genesis 1 mesh reveals there's very very little difference. If realism was truly what DAZ was after they'd be focusing their efforts on dynamic clothes, hair, and flesh rather than minor tweaks to the mesh.
The step backwards in this line is simply a matter of economics. Genesis 1 was too good. Genesis 2 has virtually no shaping abilities without purchasing them or porting them from the Genesis 1 figure. Genesis 1 on the other hand was easily customizable right out of the box. This made it too easy for the end user to create their own figures rather than buy them. The unimesh design also meant Daz wasn't able to sell male and female versions of the same outfit.
There are a lot of really neat things about the Genesis 2 figure, but Genesis 1 is over all a superior figure.
2000 polygons simply don't justify the new mesh.
The illustration isn't quite relevant since it's a static mesh. Genesis 2 female has been optimized to account for movement and morphs. That's where you'll see the benefits.
Also subdivision is only to smooth the mesh out. It doesn't add any extra capabilities but that the way DS has it implemented. Those extra 2000 polys and the way they're laid out make a huge difference for morphing the female figure, and expressions, and whether or not the base looks nice without subdivision applied.
2000 is a number of polygons which is simply higher or more than the previous. It does not account for the number of changed polygons. Again, and I am pretty sure I've said this before, you don't just add polygons on top if you are trying to be optimal. For the majority of them you re-flow it into a better configuration. If I take 2000 polygons, and simply arrange them better, well that's not going to change the overall count, now is it? But they'll still be very different.