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But if you morph G1 into the same shape as G2 and then render them, the results are virtually identical! Clearly there's been no significant change at all. Even worse, when I textured a flat single-poly plane with an image of G2 and rendered that, it was even better match! I want my money back.
Yeah, well, a lot of this shape "compatibility" that people seem to think was an accident, or in some way telling, and which they are magically uncovering, actually took a lot of effort to do. To make it that clean so that those kinds of things were even possible. Why would I set out making this, and not try to ensure that it worked well with Auto-fit, and that it offered as much compatibility as was possible.
I see a lot of people who just want to believe in negative intentions and goals, and that is simply not the case, at all.
I'll admit that I'm probably not going to be satisfied until I see a dedicated Kids package. Whether it's a sparate androgenous mesh, or an adaptation of the projected G2M mesh is kind of immaterial. But it doesn't seem likely to be based on G2F, not unless there are projected morphs for de-aging the figure, and making it possible to very much adjust the body shape to cover a lot of the different transitional shapes that developing adolescents come in. Or get rid of them altogether.
For that matter, I'd still happily accept a K5 package -- although those improvements to the face and hands, feet, elbows and knees would be all kinds useful for kid figures, and I'm sure I'd regret not having access to them. I'd be more prepared to wait for a K6, but given that we've already been having to make do with a substitute for every bit as long as people had to wait for a proper M4 figure, it will not be without a great deal of grousing.
I love it, especially now that I've worked out which clothing from old stock will fit. As someone said, the hobbyist is NOT what supports Daz3d - commercial businesses and schools and others do... they're not in here combing the forums looking for complaints or making a complaint, because they have graduates with degrees using the product or content and it works right in line with their needs.
So yeah, I can believe the claim... as I am a happy camper myself. As I initially said - every time they release another Vicky, they get closer and closer to actual realism - something commercial users and business WANT. Me included.
Pretty much, 2000 polygons won't add much to a subdivided mesh of more than 18000 polygons. Cloning Genesis 2 on the Genesis 1 mesh reveals there's very very little difference. If realism was truly what DAZ was after they'd be focusing their efforts on dynamic clothes, hair, and flesh rather than minor tweaks to the mesh.
The step backwards in this line is simply a matter of economics. Genesis 1 was too good. Genesis 2 has virtually no shaping abilities without purchasing them or porting them from the Genesis 1 figure. Genesis 1 on the other hand was easily customizable right out of the box. This made it too easy for the end user to create their own figures rather than buy them. The unimesh design also meant Daz wasn't able to sell male and female versions of the same outfit.
There are a lot of really neat things about the Genesis 2 figure, but Genesis 1 is over all a superior figure.
2000 polygons simply don't justify the new mesh.
...yep, just what Ive been saying, and why G2F will remain on my Product Library rather than my 4.6 one.
...hey, there's a big sale on Genesis "Classic" stuff. Time to finally get David5.
For me, here's what I am going to do concerning the Genesis2/V6;
I am going to wait a bit and see how the G2 develops before I make any decisions on how good or bad it will be for me. Did the same thing when Genesis first came out. Also, I won't speculate on what's going to happen to Genesis in the future since the future ain't here yet, plus I don't have enough information to speculate anyways. I never was a good guesser. *wink*
So there you have it. My grand scheme.... *grin*
I love it, especially now that I've worked out which clothing from old stock will fit. As someone said, the hobbyist is NOT what supports Daz3d - commercial businesses and schools and others do... they're not in here combing the forums looking for complaints or making a complaint, because they have graduates with degrees using the product or content and it works right in line with their needs.
So yeah, I can believe the claim... as I am a happy camper myself. As I initially said - every time they release another Vicky, they get closer and closer to actual realism - something commercial users and business WANT. Me included.
I beg to disagree. Daz is primarily a hobbyist oriented market. Having worked for professional studios I can tell you Maya and its competitors are the software of choice and programs like Daz and Poser are seen strictly as amateur hour. Professional studios also buy very little content since they prefer to roll their own models for a number of reasons I've stated earlier in this thread. Daz's business model is built around getting people to buy content.
And while a school may use a program like DAZ to quickly demonstrate lighting principles to first year students (although it's pretty much just as easy to set up lighting in Maya) they will primarily be focusing on teaching their students how to use the software that employers expect them to know how to use and it would be irresponsible for them not to. Schools will not be buying content for Daz. If they use it at all, it will simply be for demonstrating fundamental principles and for that the stock content or free content from ShareCG will suffice.
The people buying the content from Daz, which is how they make their money, are hobbyists and some freelance graphic artists, who lack the time and/or skill to roll their own models. Daz is an awesome program, it really is. It's simple enough to use that a complete noob can be up and running in no time what-so-ever. There's plenty of content being generated for its models so that people with no modelling skills can start producing renders right off the start. It's got a great community of users who offer helpful tips on getting past glitches. But let's not delude ourselves. This is amateur software marketed to amateurs and independent artists doing freelance, low budget illustration work.
Hell, even Blender which is leaps and bounds above Daz barely gets any respect in the world of professional 3D graphics.
To suggest that it's okay for DAZ studio to piss off it's hobbyist market because they don't count would be an irresponsible assumption. The hobbyists are Daz's bread and butter. That's why the software is free.
I love it, especially now that I've worked out which clothing from old stock will fit. As someone said, the hobbyist is NOT what supports Daz3d - commercial businesses and schools and others do... they're not in here combing the forums looking for complaints or making a complaint, because they have graduates with degrees using the product or content and it works right in line with their needs.
So yeah, I can believe the claim... as I am a happy camper myself. As I initially said - every time they release another Vicky, they get closer and closer to actual realism - something commercial users and business WANT. Me included.
So, those "commercial business" like Pixar et all buy millions of V6 ... maybe.
Of course outside the shopping system, which would be believeable.
The shopping systems say this:
Orders 01/06/13 till 06/24/13 : 54.583 (extrapolated for whole June: 68.228)
older Junes:
2012: 57.309 (that is after the debacle of the new website which hit the sales way more than the introduction of Genesis)
2011: 99.900
2010: 88.849
2009: 99.036
Yeah, it's obviously the most successful release ever.
I will buy all the G2 stuff when it's 70%-off in four month.
edit: the no more weekly freebie should decrease the numbers before 2013 for about 10.000
Doesn't CEO Jim Thornton come from a hobbyist background? Wasn't he Chairman and CEO of Provo Craft before DAZ. It would be odd if DAZ went with a "mancrafter" for CEO, and then decided the hobbyist market wasn't worth focusing on.
Or, is he gone?
There seems to be a lot of free-air castle-construction going on here. Nothing DAZ has said gives any indication that it does not value the hobbyist market, or that hobbyists are not a major segment of the market. Arguing over secondary or tertiary what-ifs is not going to shed much light on anything.
Not exactly. For lack of a better way to think of it, he's basically a CEO for hire, brought in to rethink things and find more profitable ways of doing business. In the case of Provocraft, he made the company much more profitable by investing in a computerized cloth cutting machine and moving the company's former primary business, selling craft supplies, to on line. Good for the company, not so good for the Robert's Craft Shop employees, though, since those stores are now gone. A few clips:
http://blog.uvmag.com/a-day-in-the-night/
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/53801962-79/daz-company-software-thornton.html.csp
Preeeeeecisely!
I don't know why it is there seems to be a negativity associated with the term "hobbyist".
Hobbies are wonderful. They're what keep us from going completely koo-koo-go-crazy in a world that is ever increasingly demanding and stressful. They challenge us intellectually. They entertain us without restraint. They broaden us socially as we congregate with our fellows. They even open doors to commercial possibilities. There are entire industries to cater to hobbyists and often they are run by hobbyists for hobbyists. There should never be any shame in saying "I am a hobbyist" nor should there ever be any shame in saying "I am a business that caters to hobbyists".
I'm a man who has held many hobbies in his lifetime and this is one that I am really enjoying because it can incorporate so many other hobbies I have enjoyed.
Daz's software is amazing for what it is. Software for hobbyists, casual users, and independent freelancers. There should be no shame in either its users or its producers that this is what it is. This is its strength, that it is software that introduces new people to the world of 3D CGI. Some of them may move on to more professional things, some may be happy to remain hobbyists, casual users, and freelancers. All these are awesome things to be.
From what I've read Daz got its humble starts as a content provider for Poser, another program that caters to the hobbyist market. It has now grown into a hobbyist platform in its own right and now provides its own content.
Regardless of what one may think of the new figure there has been absolutely nothing to indicate that Daz is going to stop being what it is, a provider of software and content to a growing, vibrant, hobbyist market. And there is absolutely no shame in that what-so-ever.
Probably for the same reason there's a negativity associated with "amateur". It wasn't so very long ago that in many fields, amateurs (the word derives from one meaning "lover") were far more respected than money-grubbing professionals.
Preeeeeecisely!
I don't know why it is there seems to be a negativity associated with the term "hobbyist".
Hobbies are wonderful. They're what keep us from going completely koo-koo-go-crazy in a world that is ever increasingly demanding and stressful. They challenge us intellectually. They entertain us without restraint. They broaden us socially as we congregate with our fellows. They even open doors to commercial possibilities. There are entire industries to cater to hobbyists and often they are run by hobbyists for hobbyists. There should never be any shame in saying "I am a hobbyist" nor should there ever be any shame in saying "I am a business that caters to hobbyists".
I'm a man who has held many hobbies in his lifetime and this is one that I am really enjoying because it can incorporate so many other hobbies I have enjoyed.
Daz's software is amazing for what it is. Software for hobbyists, casual users, and independent freelancers. There should be no shame in either its users or its producers that this is what it is. This is its strength, that it is software that introduces new people to the world of 3D CGI. Some of them may move on to more professional things, some may be happy to remain hobbyists, casual users, and freelancers. All these are awesome things to be.
From what I've read Daz got its humble starts as a content provider for Poser, another program that caters to the hobbyist market. It has now grown into a hobbyist platform in its own right and now provides its own content.
Regardless of what one may think of the new figure there has been absolutely nothing to indicate that Daz is going to stop being what it is, a provider of software and content to a growing, vibrant, hobbyist market. And there is absolutely no shame in that what-so-ever.
Wow..........well said!
The bottom line folks is that DAZ is a business, they will do what they feel is best for the company and it's bottom line.......as they should and MUST do. It is my sincere hope that they continue to develop new figures, ideas and improvements for many years to come. Congrats BTW to MallenLane for a job well done!
I for one will always be grateful for the day I found DAZ Studio........and oh my gosh! This is free? No strings attached? They aren't going to give it to me then tell me I can't use it for any commercial use? Are they nuts? WooHooooo this is fun.......look how much stuff I can get for $1.99 and PC Club membership fees? (Costco charges me almost as much and isn't nearly so much fun to shop in)..........
Lastly.........as a new content creator I was heavily discouraged with the release of G2F, however I have been working on a G2F version of my first release (Miss Fisher's Wardrobe) and my gosh there is a big difference in how the new figure works with the draping morphs......draping morphs for all 40 of the new poses (20 each for G2F and V6) work beautifully on BOTH figures. This is NOT simply a tweak of the original Genesis.........there are huge improvements in the figure.
By all means continue to use your previous generation figures and all of the great content you have for it.........the androgynous base has some advantages for sure. Genesis 2 is simply a new addition to a long line of exceptional product, and just so you know.......PA's were specifically assured that if they wanted to continue making content for previous generations DAZ would be happy to put that content into the marketplace.
I think you'll find if you look through the store that most Genesis content was still built and optimized for females. Having a dress that will autoconform to M5 with the straps distorted to rick-rack on the pecs is not that same thing as having male support.
Men generally have less variety in clothes, anyway. I just wish there were more textures for them.
Of course. I never said Genesis entirely destroyed that issue. If you'll reread what I said in the paragraph right under the one you quote here, I acknowledged that even with Genesis, there were still some nudges for male and child content. Because Genesis 1 could use all of the clothing released for it, the demand for it wasn't nearly as vocally dire as it was back before Genesis came. There was actually quite a few items that were specifically aimed at the female side of Genesis that I was able to pull off on a male quite nicely.
This, I would say, was the biggest mistake. I understand that Daz may be a small company and may not have a marketing department, but there's gotta be someone at the company who wears that hat when it's needed. The lack of an announcement stating Daz's intentions for the new Genesis 2 line and the future of the Genesis 1 line has caused a lot of confusion and unease in the community which is never a good thing.
For all we know Genesis 2 could be a unimesh design, but one that allows for clothing to be created not just on an androgynous base form, but also on a male and a female base form. Now that would be a huge improvement we could all get behind. Morphs and clothes could be created on the androgynous base which would still translate to the male and female forms BUT when a male or female specific item or morph is required it could be fashioned for that form. That would be a truly fantastic expansion of the unimesh concept and would still keep the figure true to the Genesis line.
They may have released the Female base form first simply because female oriented products are the more popular.
But once again we don't know because the only thing we've heard from Daz is "Genesis 2 Female and Victoria 6 are released".
Some might think that this silence was intentional to cause a commotion in the community to get everyone talking about the Genesis 2 figure but I can tell you from experience that in a marketing setting you always want the community commotion a new product generates to be about how awesome it is. You never want it to be about the anxiety and uncertainty your new product causes.
Once this anxiety and concern was noted in the community Daz's first priority should have been to put it at ease and end speculation. They've really dropped the ball on this. Like I said, even if they don't have a marketing department there has to be someone at the company whose job includes being a liaison between Daz and its customers and they should have stepped forward by now to put these concerns to rest.
Dropping a new product on the users unexpectedly like this even if it does have some awesome improvements is never a good idea (and don't get me wrong, I really love some of the improvements in Genesis 2, but if they truly come at the loss of the unimesh they're not worth it).
Actually, as of the time the new CEO came in, they didn't just have a marketing department, they had a CMO. Not sure if she's still there, but she was as of the last time InsideVIew updated the company info:
http://www.insideview.com/directory/daz-productions-inc
amazing what you can find on the internet, isn't it?
and there's a bit more in this article at
http://news.creativecow.net/story/867550
There is a lot of misinformation going around in this thread. That list is incredibly out of date. Jim is still our fearless leader, however, almost that entire list is inaccurate with some people being listed in positions they never held as well as some senior management and executives that aren't on that list at all. And the estimates up a bit on the number of orders (I'm guessing that is per hour?) is *way* off.
As far as the messaging and marketing behind V6/G2, there was a specific plan, and of course, there is going to be a postmortum on it to figure out what we can do better given all the traffic and sales data and, of course, feedback from the forums. That being said, from past experience, doing a lot of detailed announcements tends to draw a lot of negative feedback on here. Doing just a sneak peek the same. And doing minimal announcement on the forum just as much argument and anger. There is always a (usually very vocal) segment that doesn't like how Daz executes and there is a running joke that if we want to avoid all the negativity, we should just do things like release new plugins, next gen figures, utilities like Install Manager, etc., as separate PA or company, and people will sing the praises of it, until they find out its from Daz that is (note, a running joke, not something we would actually do).
Edit: I will also toss this out there.. the "most successful release" was, and still is as of today, based on units sold, downloaded (not counting the G2F essentials), and revenue, all of which exceed all previous launches. We are very excited about how well its been received so far.
Wow did this thread take a turn in direction :)
Okay here's my 2 cents. I consider myself a 3D hobbyist. & proud of it., The only reason I started with Daz was I was doing some Illustrations for a web site and was researching the best way to come up with a graphic I needed to create something that I couldn't accomplish with Adobe Illustrator . That is when I came across Poser and Daz. which fit the bill for the graphics I needed.& that started me on the road to a love affair with 3d Art & then Animation.
I may not choose to use Genesis, but I still love to use Daz &Poser;. and really who gives a crap about the opinions of others and what they say about the art create... I do what I love and don't worry about what someone else says about the art I create, because most of the time they are full of Poo and jealous of my amateur accomplishment with a program that has a learning curve a lot less steep than Blender, 3DS, Maya and Mud-Box. and after 2 semesters of Autodesk design suite I can say that honestly.
Well all I'm wondering now is.. is Dan still with DAZ at all? Hmm... curious :question:
There is a lot of misinformation going around in this thread. That list is incredibly out of date. Jim is still our fearless leader, however, almost that entire list is inaccurate with some people being listed in positions they never held as well as some senior management and executives that aren't on that list at all. And the estimates up a bit on the number of orders (I'm guessing that is per hour?) is *way* off.
As far as the messaging and marketing behind V6/G2, there was a specific plan, and of course, there is going to be a postmortum on it to figure out what we can do better given all the traffic and sales data and, of course, feedback from the forums. That being said, from past experience, doing a lot of detailed announcements tends to draw a lot of negative feedback on here. Doing just a sneak peek the same. And doing minimal announcement on the forum just as much argument and anger. There is always a (usually very vocal) segment that doesn't like how Daz executes and there is a running joke that if we want to avoid all the negativity, we should just do things like release new plugins, next gen figures, utilities like Install Manager, etc., as separate PA or company, and people will sing the praises of it, until they find out its from Daz that is (note, a running joke, not something we would actually do).
Edit: I will also toss this out there.. the "most successful release" was, and still is as of today, based on units sold, downloaded (not counting the G2F essentials), and revenue, all of which exceed all previous launches. We are very excited about how well its been received so far.I can understand that the company may feel that way, however as someone who has always been very supportive of DAZ 3D I feel very let down by the most recent release. I think in hindsight that sometimes you need to bite the bullet and keep lines of communication open to your customers. Not everyone vocally disapproves of everything DAZ 3D does and you run the risk of alienating those customers who are supportive of you if you don't keep the lines of communication open.
Just my two cents for what it is worth...
Where exactly did Mercedesk say business's like Pixar are buying millions of V6? I can't seem to find it.
Orders 01/06/13 till 06/24/13 : 54.583 (extrapolated for whole June: 68.228)
older Junes:
2012: 57.309 (that is after the debacle of the new website which hit the sales way more than the introduction of Genesis)
2011: 99.900
2010: 88.849
2009: 99.036
Yeah, it's obviously the most successful release ever.
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. What do those numbers have to do with the success of V6's release?
Coldrake
Just my two cents for what it is worth...
Exactly this :) And it's not too late even now. Go through all these threads and see that the most asked questions and fears are:
"Is Genesis 1 being phased out?"
"Will G2F and G2M be able to share clothes, morphs etc?"
Put it in an announcement thread so at least we can see it without responding if that's best for you all. :)
Some of us don't care about sales figures and the like. We're just loving the way Genesis is working for us and are sad that it might not be that way in the future. wink
It won't stop all the negativity ... hell it's been that way for all 10 years. LOL But it might cut it down some. :)
Just my two cents for what it is worth...
Exactly this :) And it's not too late even now. Go through all these threads and see that the most asked questions and fears are:
"Is Genesis 1 being phased out?"
"Will G2F and G2M be able to share clothes, morphs etc?"
Put it in an announcement thread so at least we can see it without responding if that's best for you all. :)
Some of us don't care about sales figures and the like. We're just loving the way Genesis is working for us and are sad that it might not be that way in the future. wink
It won't stop all the negativity ... hell it's been that way for all 10 years. LOL But it might cut it down some. :)
Will G2F and G2M be able to share UVs, we will obtain M4 UV in G2, and a better shoes autofit like V4 obtained?
...here in Portland OR, one family who basically "kick started" the entire craft brew craze, had become a regional icon. they have a number of very unique pubs/brewpubs as well as having bought other properties that include the old County Poor Farm, a derelict school, a renovated a couple old fading hotels, bought an old dance hall, and one of the most classy old cinema palaces left in the city. Well this week I learned they sold out to the Big Hollyweird money and are turning the old cinema into a first run house with first run admission rates.
Sad, very sad when big corporations ruin what once was good. A lot of us in the neighbourhood are very displeased.
...I guess it is a sign of the times. Big money spoils everything that is good.
I've always thought it's better to be damned for what you do than what you don't do.
There is a lot of anxiety over this new figure. Genesis was a big leap forward in versatility and from what we've seen so far Genesis 2 is a big step backwards. Users are afraid that if the Genesis 1 line is discontinued we will lose the versatility that figure offered. It's a pretty valid worry too.
Scuttlebutt thrives in a vacuum of information and it would really be a good idea if Daz came out sooner rather than later in addressing its customers concerns.
I've always thought it's better to be damned for what you do than what you don't do.
There is a lot of anxiety over this new figure. Genesis was a big leap forward in versatility and from what we've seen so far Genesis 2 is a big step backwards. Users are afraid that if the Genesis 1 line is discontinued we will lose the versatility that figure offered. It's a pretty valid worry too.
Scuttlebutt thrives in a vacuum of information and it would really be a good idea if Daz came out sooner rather than later in addressing its customers concerns.
Yes, I think there would be a lot less ill-feeling if Daz had come out and said something like - We're really excited about this new product we're getting ready for launch. We don't expect all of you to adopt it but we hope you give it a fair chance. It is a really great product because.... If differs in these ways from your existing products... Then set up a strictly Q&A thread. You're never going to stop moaning but it stops cuts down on the speculation and negativity which doesn't just stop at your forum.
Just curious, has DAZ even said they are releasing a male/kid G2? If I missed it sorry, but I wouldn't take it as a given if they haven't said it, given the way everyone says males and kids are really crappy in sales. Why bother making it if no one supposedly buys anything for it?
Nothing official yet, but the general assumption is that there will be a male figure. As for kids we have zero information. Whether it will be a morph or a new figure remains to be seen. Either way, I'm already sold if they release a K5.
MallenLane did say that a Geneisis2 Male was going to happen, but gave no time scale.