V6, DAZ's most successful release?

RCDeschene

DAZ_Jon said:

As far as the messaging and marketing behind V6/G2, there was a specific plan, and of course, there is going to be a postmortum on it to figure out what we can do better given all the traffic and sales data and, of course, feedback from the forums. That being said, from past experience, doing a lot of detailed announcements tends to draw a lot of negative feedback on here. Doing just a sneak peek the same. And doing minimal announcement on the forum just as much argument and anger. There is always a (usually very vocal) segment that doesn't like how Daz executes and there is a running joke that if we want to avoid all the negativity, we should just do things like release new plugins, next gen figures, utilities like Install Manager, etc., as separate PA or company, and people will sing the praises of it, until they find out its from Daz that is (note, a running joke, not something we would actually do).

So that's seriously the reason why there's been lesser and lesser communication from DAZ? Why we've stopped getting sneak previews in the PC forum? Why there's absolutely no explanation as to why G2F and V6 suddenly appeared in the store? Just because you guys don't like to hear the negative criticism?

Jon, every business endures that kind of feedback, no matter how much they try to make everyone happy. Yes, I agree that sometimes it can be very disheartening when you're a company and you all put your time and biggest efforts into really great products, only to see those specific crowds of people verbally destroy it. And that is ESPECIALLY so in the world of Art. A lot of artists can be and are very up-tight and cranky people. I agree, they're an huge pain to be around. But that shouldn't stop anyone from trying to make good business, anyway, especially with the people who do enjoy investing in and support them.

Back in that summer when we were all pretty much camping at the V5 promo thead, and poked and pried, commented and critiqued, analysed and speculated, and joked and argued on every detail with every shot you guys teased us with. That's what made everything about that topic FUN! :D Then you guys release her and we did more of that. Yes, a lot of us quickly found out she wasn't exactly as all of us over-hyped, but as your sales saw, she was a hit, and I'm not sure about you guys, but I saw her reception to be more positive than negative. What I'm seeing here now is the exact opposite. That's why I'm to bet money that I'll never have, never mind the kind I don't have right now to buy V6 with, that if we just had the opportunity and the pre-info to get excited and discuss over it, things would have been much different.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, DAZ! ; )

RCDeschene

Also, what I said about me betting money over a different outcome, made me realize something. I noticed that the way I wrote it may seem to other like I taking a jab at V6's pricing. I'm actually, and I think that's something else that's relevant to the way attitudes are perceived around here. There is A LOT of dry humor on these forums. There were plenty of times I seen members get into petty bantering over something that was in reality, a complete misunderstanding of statement. Maybe some of what people are trying to say to you guys over at DAZ is really more sarcastic that what you should take to heart.

I'm not saying that's true for a fact, they could be more serious than I'm assuming, but still, it's just a helpful thought...

Serene Night

Mercedesk said:

SereneNight said:

I can buy v6 is this popular. Lots of people seem to like the attractive female characters. =-)

I love it, especially now that I've worked out which clothing from old stock will fit. As someone said, the hobbyist is NOT what supports Daz3d - commercial businesses and schools and others do... they're not in here combing the forums looking for complaints or making a complaint, because they have graduates with degrees using the product or content and it works right in line with their needs.

So yeah, I can believe the claim... as I am a happy camper myself. As I initially said - every time they release another Vicky, they get closer and closer to actual realism - something commercial users and business WANT. Me included.

Me too! I love v6. Of course, I will love M6 more since I prefer to render men, but, I do love the character. She looks far better to me than v5. I doubt I will ever go back.

My only downside is the content doesn't enthuse me- yet.

TheKD

chohole said:

MallenLane did say that a Geneisis2 Male was going to happen, but gave no time scale.

Well, at least they didn't say it was coming soon lmao

Serene Night

Personally would love to see M6 sooner than later. =-)

MallenLane

:)

icprncss

DAZ_Jon said:

As far as the messaging and marketing behind V6/G2, there was a specific plan, and of course, there is going to be a postmortum on it to figure out what we can do better given all the traffic and sales data and, of course, feedback from the forums. That being said, from past experience, doing a lot of detailed announcements tends to draw a lot of negative feedback on here. Doing just a sneak peek the same. And doing minimal announcement on the forum just as much argument and anger. There is always a (usually very vocal) segment that doesn't like how Daz executes and there is a running joke that if we want to avoid all the negativity, we should just do things like release new plugins, next gen figures, utilities like Install Manager, etc., as separate PA or company, and people will sing the praises of it, until they find out its from Daz that is (note, a running joke, not something we would actually do).

DAZ didn't give users any advanced warning that they were even considering implementing a new base figure let alone doing it as a gender split because they didn't want negative feedback?

Maybe those who are working there now should sit down and have a few drinks with Dan Farr, Chris Creek and Steve Kondris. Ask them about the beta days of DS, the acquisition of Bryce, their "you buy this bundle now and we will give you a voucher for $30 off the price of Bryce 5.5 whenever it's finished" deal and all the feedback it engendered. Compared to back then what feedback I'm seeing in the forums today is tame.

This post will probably end up deleted as have a couple of my previous posts regarding the release of G2F/V6 and DAZ but oh well...

ghastlycomic

SereneNight said:

Mercedesk said:

SereneNight said:

I can buy v6 is this popular. Lots of people seem to like the attractive female characters. =-)

I love it, especially now that I've worked out which clothing from old stock will fit. As someone said, the hobbyist is NOT what supports Daz3d - commercial businesses and schools and others do... they're not in here combing the forums looking for complaints or making a complaint, because they have graduates with degrees using the product or content and it works right in line with their needs.

So yeah, I can believe the claim... as I am a happy camper myself. As I initially said - every time they release another Vicky, they get closer and closer to actual realism - something commercial users and business WANT. Me included.

Me too! I love v6. Of course, I will love M6 more since I prefer to render men, but, I do love the character. She looks far better to me than v5. I doubt I will ever go back.

My only downside is the content doesn't enthuse me- yet.

I like it now that I've transfered my Genesis 1 morphs over to it and made the figure actually usable. Until I find out if they're going with a unimesh design so that morphs can be shared amongst the figures I'll continue to do my morph making on Genesis 1 and then port them over the Genesis 2.

I've made a male figure and an androgynous figure for the G2F to tide us over until they get around to releasing one.

It's posted in the freepository.

MallenLane

-info that apparently no one actually wanted-

Serene Night

ghastlycomic said:

SereneNight said:

Mercedesk said:

SereneNight said:

I can buy v6 is this popular. Lots of people seem to like the attractive female characters. =-)

I love it, especially now that I've worked out which clothing from old stock will fit. As someone said, the hobbyist is NOT what supports Daz3d - commercial businesses and schools and others do... they're not in here combing the forums looking for complaints or making a complaint, because they have graduates with degrees using the product or content and it works right in line with their needs.

So yeah, I can believe the claim... as I am a happy camper myself. As I initially said - every time they release another Vicky, they get closer and closer to actual realism - something commercial users and business WANT. Me included.

Me too! I love v6. Of course, I will love M6 more since I prefer to render men, but, I do love the character. She looks far better to me than v5. I doubt I will ever go back.

My only downside is the content doesn't enthuse me- yet.

I like it now that I've transfered my Genesis 1 morphs over to it and made the figure actually usable. Until I find out if they're going with a unimesh design so that morphs can be shared amongst the figures I'll continue to do my morph making on Genesis 1 and then port them over the Genesis 2.

I've made a male figure and an androgynous figure for the G2F to tide us over until they get around to releasing one.

It's posted in the freepository.

Wow! you are so awesome! =-) Thanks.

Satira Capriccio

Those were the days, weren't they.

I ran across an odd statement on CrunchBase profile for Eyal Gever

Eyal had founded and was the CEO of few technology companies - Zapa Digital Arts, Gizmoz and Co founded Daz3D after the merger of Daz3D and Gizmoz in January 2010.

And here, I always thought Dan Farr and Chris Creek co founded DAZ 3D. Good to know that it was actually Eyal Gever who co founded DAZ 3D in January 2010.

As it turns out, the co founded DAZ 3D statement comes from Eyal Gever's biography on his site. I will say this though ... he has some really cool sculptures/installations.

ghastlycomic

MallenLane said:

-info that apparently no one actually wanted-

What? No! I want all the info. Always. All the time! If I could I'd put a chip in my brain to keep me wired to the internet.

LordHardDriven

fixmypcmike said:

LordHardDriven said:

Due to consistency of key body parts and shapes, such as feet users are able to utilize content and accessories intended for not only the Genesis 2 females, but to also leverage their Genesis content through the "auto fit" process.

Doesn't sound like a completely new figure to me but rather the same figure with key improvements made to targeted areas.

Wouldn't that mean Genesis is the same as V4 with targeted improvements, since you can autofit the previous generation's content?

No because V4 wasn't able to morph into all the different shapes Genesis can, at least not that I am aware of. Genesis was different and so people seemed generally more tolerant of having to pay to get Genesis versions of content made for Generation 4 which made up a big part of the early Genesis content. Then there started being more new content that was Genesis specific which helped drive the wedge further between those split over Studio vs Poser.

In fact as I recall Genesis was so not like V4 that you actually had to buy a separate package to get Genesis to look like V4.

Genesis vs Genesis 2 seems a lot more contrived if everyone needs to start rebuying content they've already bought before. It doesn't make sense that someone should have to buy an updated clothing item or outfit, or an updated hair or character specific prop. Now poses perhaps would need to be reworked, expressions maybe, perhaps some character morphs might be revisited as a 2.0 version with the ability for a more realistic look but the original character morph should still work and look as good as it did on Genesis 1.

Serene Night

MallenLane said:

:)

You are awesome MallenLane. Great work on V6! I'm looking forward to M6. =-)

JasmineSkunk

MallenLane said:

Yeah, well, a lot of this shape "compatibility" that people seem to think was an accident, or in some way telling, and which they are magically uncovering, actually took a lot of effort to do. To make it that clean so that those kinds of things were even possible. Why would I set out making this, and not try to ensure that it worked well with Auto-fit, and that it offered as much compatibility as was possible.

I see a lot of people who just want to believe in negative intentions and goals, and that is simply not the case, at all.

MellenLane, I think you rock...

Seriously... You are one of the best creators here at DAZ... and one of my favorites...I believe you when you say it was a lot of work to make the improvements to the mesh... and I believe the improvements probably do make things clean and tidy and improve the "beauty" of the mesh overall. I also believe that YOU believe in this work and that you do not have any negative intentions or goals.

...but all of that is irrelevant.

Why? Because improvements are not improvements if they break something else...

Sims 3 anyone?

See with the Sims, every time you bought a new pack it broke something that worked in the game before... and you'd have to wait for updates or the next expansion to fix it...

This is VERY annoying to the "consumer"...

See... you guys BROKE Genesis... split it into two...

Of course people are not going to be happy about that.

By the way....

Would you consider making a light set for Daz Studio? The Cotton Candy Lights that came with Hitome are AWESOMENESS!!!

Thanks for listening...

Jaz

SassyWench

MallenLane said:

-info that apparently no one actually wanted-

Lots of us want info... the real kind the you can offer. :)
But we seem to get lost under the other "never going to work" posts. LOL

We're are listening though!

LordHardDriven

Agent_Unawares said:

Err, you were the one insisting sales would have turned out better had the G2 release been put off. I merely acknowledged the possibility and pointed out humbly that I can't know, with no assumptions as to whether you yourself possess a crystal ball or not.

No I wasn't insisting I was reasoning. It's reasonable to conclude that an add-on that gives enhanced details and realism to a figure that lacks them by default will sell more the longer that figure is the flagship figure built into flagship program (Studio) for using it. New sales on existing items tend to come from new customers and new customers are most likely to go with what the company is currently promoting is the latest and greatest. I mean really given what people like zev0 and others have done with Genesis to give it enhanced realism to both male and female shapes I really don't get the need to split the figure into two separate figures.

Agent_Unawares said:

No, there are definitely people outright vetoing the idea of G2 and claiming it's a step back, no less.

Yeah and maybe it is, like I said since there are already 3rd party addons for realism if someone feels it is such a necessity a figure having it built in isn't necessarily a step forward if it means splitting the figure back into male and female. The clear message all along from those that are unhappy is that the simplification and unification of being able to create with these products is what they see as moving forward. Just because you feel differently doesn't make their opinion less valid or yours more valid.

Agent_Unawares said:

The choice of support is largely up to the PAs, not DAZ. DAZ generally does what on their own? Creates base shapes, morphs, and some elite textures. The base shapes and morphs still work perfectly well with Genesis, and so do the textures, and most of the textures work as well on G2.

DAZ should not be expected to pressure PAs into supporting an older figure over the one they believe is a step forward. Nor should they be expected to put off that step forward just to ensure content for that older figure is still developed. What sense would that make? Genesis isn't dead in the water, it's still the multifunctional androgynous biped. I expect people will continue to create for it much as they do now for V4. If not, if everyone really does jump eagerly to G2, that says something about the figure, not DAZ.

You may be able to argue that for Daz since they don't actually create the add-ons but rather just provide the market place and the figures of choice for that marketplace. The bulk of money made in this market is in the form of new users needing to outfit figures they've gotten for free or on some special deal that drew them in. New users follow what's being touted as the latest and greatest. Older users tend to object when new figures replace old because it usually means thousands of dollars worth of product have become virtually obsolete and they'll have to spend thousands more (if they can still afford it) just to do what they used to be able to do but with a newer figure that may or may not seem better in some way to them. Therefore even though they aren't telling PA's specifically what to do they're still telling them what to do by virtue of the nature of the market. I do not expect anyone to pressure anyone since both Daz and the PA's profit greatly thru their joint efforts and depend on one another to keep profiting greatly what I would expect is them to be able to come to mutual agreements that each are happy with.

You may be able to argue that for DAZ, and that DAZ should have updated their female legacy shapes, etcetera to be compatible, but that's as far as the tenuous comparison goes. Genesis is a new figure as far as the PAs, new shapes such as V6, and creating content go. There's no reason at all they should be expected to redo everything for a new figure for free. Especially since their content still works perfectly well with Genesis, just as it was advertised to, exactly as well as it did before G2 appeared, and isn't being superseded by anything.

From what I have seen and others echo this, Genesis 2 is built off the Genesis mesh with enhancements to key areas to allow greater flexibility. Therefore the basic framework is the same. Hairs that worked for Genesis should not need to be reworked for Genesis 2, props should not need to be reworked, cloths should not need so much adjustment as to be seen as a new creation. Poses for the most part should not need much if any revision, Perhaps expressions might need to be reworked and some character morphs revisited but the original version of everything should also still work or if it absolutely needs to be updated then the PA's should just write that off as part of maintaining customer satisfaction and loyalty.

I, on the other hand, remember a lot of crying about the EXP system, the new surface setup, the lack of a backwards-compatible V3 UV, the way the additional characters were morphs of the same mesh...the only major difference with this release is I'm not seeing outcry about bending. A step forward! ;)

Like I said since V4.2 when the EXP system came into being and people how had invested in V4 expecting it to have as long a run as V3 were unhappy at having to shell out more money so soon to stay current with the marketplace. What I was talking about was Prior to that with things like V3, M3, A3, Freak, The Girl, Stephanie Petite, Millennium Preschoolers Matt & Maddie, Millennium Young Teens Luke and Laura, Millennium Horse, Millennium Dragon, etc. I don't remember a whole lot of outrage back then about nobody supporting Gen 2 figures. Which I attribute to the fact that the consumers in the marketplace were also ready for a change.

MallenLane

JasmineSkunk said:

MallenLane said:

Yeah, well, a lot of this shape "compatibility" that people seem to think was an accident, or in some way telling, and which they are magically uncovering, actually took a lot of effort to do. To make it that clean so that those kinds of things were even possible. Why would I set out making this, and not try to ensure that it worked well with Auto-fit, and that it offered as much compatibility as was possible.

I see a lot of people who just want to believe in negative intentions and goals, and that is simply not the case, at all.

MellenLane, I think you rock...

Seriously... You are one of the best creators here at DAZ... and one of my favorites...I believe you when you say it was a lot of work to make the improvements to the mesh... and I believe the improvements probably do make things clean and tidy and improve the "beauty" of the mesh overall. I also believe that YOU believe in this work and that you do not have any negative intentions or goals.

...but all of that is irrelevant.

Why? Because improvements are not improvements if they break something else...

Sims 3 anyone?

See with the Sims, every time you bought a new pack it broke something that worked in the game before... and you'd have to wait for updates or the next expansion to fix it...

This is VERY annoying to the "consumer"...

See... you guys BROKE Genesis... split it into two...

Of course people are not going to be happy about that.

By the way....

Would you consider making a light set for Daz Studio? The Cotton Candy Lights that came with Hitome are AWESOMENESS!!!

Thanks for listening...

Jaz

I can handle that. I understand some people are unhappy; I understand why. To many people, the improvements out weigh the loss of some of the flexibility. They are not the most vocal bunch; people who are content/happy with what they are currently doing, usually aren't - they are doing what they do.

I said this before in another thread; if flexibility at any cost is the primary feature you liked about Genesis 1, then nothing said in way of explanation about Genesis 2 will satisfy.

I don't do lights very often. I used to put lights in some of my very very old products, like Hatchling Dragon; I might've included some in the Sea Dragon, not sure. I think I even had like a lightset product for Poser 4 a million years ago. So, when I made Hitomi and I was making the promos for the large update, I just thought, eh, why not include the lights I used. But I'm sure there are probably much better light sets out there.

background

I would like information too, and the clearer the information is the better.
Some of the criticism of DAZ I have seen here in the past has arisen from ambiguous statements that people then interpret, often quite wrongly, and get worked up about.

There will always be people who will complain, sometimes over things they only imagine you said.

I bought V6 and I'm really happy with Genesis 2, especially since I can transfer my Genesis 1 morphs over with the process that Kattey has documented. I see it as complimenting Genesis 1 and not replacing it.

One of the criticisms that were aimed at Genesis 1 was that making female clothing was difficult on a gender neutral base figure. Now we have a separate female base. It's all good.

LordHardDriven

anikad said:

ghastlycomic said:

DAZ_Jon said:

As far as the messaging and marketing behind V6/G2, there was a specific plan, and of course, there is going to be a postmortum on it to figure out what we can do better given all the traffic and sales data and, of course, feedback from the forums. That being said, from past experience, doing a lot of detailed announcements tends to draw a lot of negative feedback on here. Doing just a sneak peek the same. And doing minimal announcement on the forum just as much argument and anger.

I've always thought it's better to be damned for what you do than what you don't do.

There is a lot of anxiety over this new figure. Genesis was a big leap forward in versatility and from what we've seen so far Genesis 2 is a big step backwards. Users are afraid that if the Genesis 1 line is discontinued we will lose the versatility that figure offered. It's a pretty valid worry too.

Scuttlebutt thrives in a vacuum of information and it would really be a good idea if Daz came out sooner rather than later in addressing its customers concerns.

Yes, I think there would be a lot less ill-feeling if Daz had come out and said something like - We're really excited about this new product we're getting ready for launch. We don't expect all of you to adopt it but we hope you give it a fair chance. It is a really great product because.... If differs in these ways from your existing products... Then set up a strictly Q&A thread. You're never going to stop moaning but it stops cuts down on the speculation and negativity which doesn't just stop at your forum.

I don't see why this couldn't have been handled more like an Elite option was for V4 and M4 then the customer would be presented with a picture more like here is Genesis which is fine and good for most peoples needs but for those who require that extra level of realism here is Genesis Elite. I think had it been more like that a lot of fears would have been avoided.

JasmineSkunk

MallenLane said:

JasmineSkunk said:

MallenLane said:

Yeah, well, a lot of this shape "compatibility" that people seem to think was an accident, or in some way telling, and which they are magically uncovering, actually took a lot of effort to do. To make it that clean so that those kinds of things were even possible. Why would I set out making this, and not try to ensure that it worked well with Auto-fit, and that it offered as much compatibility as was possible.

I see a lot of people who just want to believe in negative intentions and goals, and that is simply not the case, at all.

MellenLane, I think you rock...

Seriously... You are one of the best creators here at DAZ... and one of my favorites...I believe you when you say it was a lot of work to make the improvements to the mesh... and I believe the improvements probably do make things clean and tidy and improve the "beauty" of the mesh overall. I also believe that YOU believe in this work and that you do not have any negative intentions or goals.

...but all of that is irrelevant.

Why? Because improvements are not improvements if they break something else...

Sims 3 anyone?

See with the Sims, every time you bought a new pack it broke something that worked in the game before... and you'd have to wait for updates or the next expansion to fix it...

This is VERY annoying to the "consumer"...

See... you guys BROKE Genesis... split it into two...

Of course people are not going to be happy about that.

By the way....

Would you consider making a light set for Daz Studio? The Cotton Candy Lights that came with Hitome are AWESOMENESS!!!

Thanks for listening...

Jaz

I can handle that. I understand some people are unhappy; I understand why. To many people, the improvements out weigh the loss of some of the flexibility. They are not the most vocal bunch; people who are content/happy with what they are currently doing, usually aren't - they are doing what they do.

I said this before in another thread; if flexibility at any cost is the primary feature you liked about Genesis 1, then nothing said in way of explanation about Genesis 2 will satisfy.

I don't do lights very often. I used to put lights in some of my very very old products, like Hatchling Dragon; I might've included some in the Sea Dragon, not sure. I think I even had like a lightset product for Poser 4 a million years ago. So, when I made Hitomi and I was making the promos for the large update, I just thought, eh, why not include the lights I used. But I'm sure there are probably much better light sets out there.

Which brings me back to the original point I was trying to make early in the thread...

DAZ3D does not CARE what the hobbyists wants or thinks.

See, hobbyists like myself, need economical solutions. The flexibility of Genesis was it's BEST feature. It made doing this stuff affordable and versatile. Hobbyists really can't afford to buy a new character and new clothes for every project.

And we know it isn't the PA's making these decisions. We understand that it is DAZ who asked you to do this in this way. There is really NO GOOD explanation as to why improvements couldn't have been made to the mesh in a way that would have suited both genders and or creatures that may need to be created. This is an attempt to pump out something new just for the sake of being something new and get as much money for a figure as possible rather than an attempt to offer a great product... and that IS the issue for many of us... It doesn't take a mathematician to know that it costs more to clothe two than it does to clothe one. Ask anyone who has kids.
Daz knows this, too.

and... I think that kinda sucks.

V6 is just a new figure. Perhaps a pretty one, but that's not what I loved about Genesis. I can make Genesis look beautiful. Heck, with good textures, even V2 can be beautiful... (as a matter of fact, I have just now decided I won't even refer to V6 as Genesis 2 from now on. It's just V6)

It's just not what WE, the hobbyists, wanted or needed... it's not what we supported and paid for.

...not that it is even going to matter what we say we want... but, I am hoping that the vendors here will listen to us at least a little...

Anyway...

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me. I imagine you are hoping V6 will be well received and loved. And I imagine she will be... but to be honest the strategy being used here (to split up the figures into two) kinda makes me nauseous... especially when I think of how much I defended Daz and the Genesis line...

See: I am wrong sometimes.

background

JasmineSkunk said:

Which brings me back to the original point I was trying to make early in the thread...

DAZ3D does not CARE what the hobbyists wants or thinks.

See, hobbyists like myself, need economical solutions. The flexibility of Genesis was it's BEST feature. It made doing this stuff affordable and versatile. Hobbyists really can't afford to buy a new character and new clothes for every project.

And we know it isn't the PA's making these decisions. We understand that it is DAZ who asked you to do this in this way. There is really NO GOOD explanation as to why improvements couldn't have been made to the mesh in a way that would have suited both genders and or creatures that may need to be created. This is an attempt to pump out something new just for the sake of being something new and get as much money for a figure as possible rather than an attempt to offer a great product... and that IS the issue for many of us... It doesn't take a mathematician to know that it costs more to clothe two than it does to clothe one. Ask anyone who has kids.
Daz knows this, too.

and... I think that kinda sucks.

V6 is just a new figure. Perhaps a pretty one, but that's not what I loved about Genesis. I can make Genesis look beautiful. Heck, with good textures, even V2 can be beautiful... (as a matter of fact, I have just now decided I won't even refer to V6 as Genesis 2 from now on. It's just V6)

It's just not what WE, the hobbyists, wanted or needed... it's not what we supported and paid for.

...not that it is even going to matter what we say we want... but, I am hoping that the vendors here will listen to us at least a little...

Anyway...

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me. I imagine you are hoping V6 will be well received and loved. And I imagine she will be... but to be honest the strategy being used here (to split up the figures into two) kinda makes me nauseous... especially when I think of how much I defended Daz and the Genesis line...

See: I am wrong sometimes.

I'm a hobbyist and I disagree with what you wrote. please don't claim to speak for 'WE, the hobbyists' when you are expressing your own opinion. You are quite entitled to you own opinion, as we all are, but unless you are an elected representative, it is misleading to claim you speak for more than yourself.

LordHardDriven

Somebody mentioned messages earlier and then I noticed in the New Releases section the way the discount is placed on the thumbnails it looks like ape shift instead of shape shift. Does that mean with Genesis 2 instead of having Genesis 2 Gorilla it'll be Genesis 2 Ape? : D

DAZ_Jon

RCDeschene said:

So that's seriously the reason why there's been lesser and lesser communication from DAZ? Why we've stopped getting sneak previews in the PC forum? Why there's absolutely no explanation as to why G2F and V6 suddenly appeared in the store? Just because you guys don't like to hear the negative criticism?

Jon, every business endures that kind of feedback, no matter how much they try to make everyone happy. Yes, I agree that sometimes it can be very disheartening when you're a company and you all put your time and biggest efforts into really great products, only to see those specific crowds of people verbally destroy it. And that is ESPECIALLY so in the world of Art. A lot of artists can be and are very up-tight and cranky people. I agree, they're an huge pain to be around. But that shouldn't stop anyone from trying to make good business, anyway, especially with the people who do enjoy investing in and support them.

Back in that summer when we were all pretty much camping at the V5 promo thead, and poked and pried, commented and critiqued, analysed and speculated, and joked and argued on every detail with every shot you guys teased us with. That's what made everything about that topic FUN! :D Then you guys release her and we did more of that. Yes, a lot of us quickly found out she wasn't exactly as all of us over-hyped, but as your sales saw, she was a hit, and I'm not sure about you guys, but I saw her reception to be more positive than negative. What I'm seeing here now is the exact opposite. That's why I'm to bet money that I'll never have, never mind the kind I don't have right now to buy V6 with, that if we just had the opportunity and the pre-info to get excited and discuss over it, things would have been much different.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, DAZ! ; )

Actually, that isn't the reason. The main reason is we're still a relatively small company. We have a very tight running ship with pretty much no fat. We have a choice to make in where to spend time, money, and resources, and that is normally to build new things and working to make sure that our customers, PAs, and the company are all doing well whether its getting the tools and resources to make great art, that our PAs are making enough money to pay the bills and eat, and that the company is profitable and not losing money. Because there is so much we want to do, both with our 3D software, figures, content, and the store, we tend to put resources to keep building and moving the technology forward. PR is important, but with limited resources, is something that had to get scaled back when you have months of different projects and initiatives and development backlogged that we think will be great things for all our customers. Really, most posts from Daz people on here are on our spare time when we need a short break from our actual work of building things for you guys.

JasmineSkunk

background said:

JasmineSkunk said:

Which brings me back to the original point I was trying to make early in the thread...

DAZ3D does not CARE what the hobbyists wants or thinks.

See, hobbyists like myself, need economical solutions. The flexibility of Genesis was it's BEST feature. It made doing this stuff affordable and versatile. Hobbyists really can't afford to buy a new character and new clothes for every project.

And we know it isn't the PA's making these decisions. We understand that it is DAZ who asked you to do this in this way. There is really NO GOOD explanation as to why improvements couldn't have been made to the mesh in a way that would have suited both genders and or creatures that may need to be created. This is an attempt to pump out something new just for the sake of being something new and get as much money for a figure as possible rather than an attempt to offer a great product... and that IS the issue for many of us... It doesn't take a mathematician to know that it costs more to clothe two than it does to clothe one. Ask anyone who has kids.
Daz knows this, too.

and... I think that kinda sucks.

V6 is just a new figure. Perhaps a pretty one, but that's not what I loved about Genesis. I can make Genesis look beautiful. Heck, with good textures, even V2 can be beautiful... (as a matter of fact, I have just now decided I won't even refer to V6 as Genesis 2 from now on. It's just V6)

It's just not what WE, the hobbyists, wanted or needed... it's not what we supported and paid for.

...not that it is even going to matter what we say we want... but, I am hoping that the vendors here will listen to us at least a little...

Anyway...

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me. I imagine you are hoping V6 will be well received and loved. And I imagine she will be... but to be honest the strategy being used here (to split up the figures into two) kinda makes me nauseous... especially when I think of how much I defended Daz and the Genesis line...

See: I am wrong sometimes.

I'm a hobbyist and I disagree with what you wrote. please don't claim to speak for 'WE, the hobbyists' when you are expressing your own opinion. You are quite entitled to you own opinion, as we all are, but unless you are an elected representative, it is misleading to claim you speak for more than yourself.

Fair enough...I stand corrected.

Dino Gramps

background said:

JasmineSkunk said:

Which brings me back to the original point I was trying to make early in the thread...

DAZ3D does not CARE what the hobbyists wants or thinks.

See, hobbyists like myself, need economical solutions. The flexibility of Genesis was it's BEST feature. It made doing this stuff affordable and versatile. Hobbyists really can't afford to buy a new character and new clothes for every project.

And we know it isn't the PA's making these decisions. We understand that it is DAZ who asked you to do this in this way. There is really NO GOOD explanation as to why improvements couldn't have been made to the mesh in a way that would have suited both genders and or creatures that may need to be created. This is an attempt to pump out something new just for the sake of being something new and get as much money for a figure as possible rather than an attempt to offer a great product... and that IS the issue for many of us... It doesn't take a mathematician to know that it costs more to clothe two than it does to clothe one. Ask anyone who has kids.
Daz knows this, too.

and... I think that kinda sucks.

V6 is just a new figure. Perhaps a pretty one, but that's not what I loved about Genesis. I can make Genesis look beautiful. Heck, with good textures, even V2 can be beautiful... (as a matter of fact, I have just now decided I won't even refer to V6 as Genesis 2 from now on. It's just V6)

It's just not what WE, the hobbyists, wanted or needed... it's not what we supported and paid for.

...not that it is even going to matter what we say we want... but, I am hoping that the vendors here will listen to us at least a little...

Anyway...

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me. I imagine you are hoping V6 will be well received and loved. And I imagine she will be... but to be honest the strategy being used here (to split up the figures into two) kinda makes me nauseous... especially when I think of how much I defended Daz and the Genesis line...

See: I am wrong sometimes.

I'm a hobbyist and I disagree with what you wrote. please don't claim to speak for 'WE, the hobbyists' when you are expressing your own opinion. You are quite entitled to you own opinion, as we all are, but unless you are an elected representative, it is misleading to claim you speak for more than yourself.

I am a hobbyist and I agree with what you wrote. From this point on your opinion can count for 2. You now truly speak for more than yourself. You do not stand corrected.

background

DAZ_Jon said:

Actually, that isn't the reason. The main reason is we're still a relatively small company. We have a very tight running ship with pretty much no fat. We have a choice to make in where to spend time, money, and resources, and that is normally to build new things and working to make sure that our customers, PAs, and the company are all doing well whether its getting the tools and resources to make great art, that our PAs are making enough money to pay the bills and eat, and that the company is profitable and not losing money. Because there is so much we want to do, both with our 3D software, figures, content, and the store, we tend to put resources to keep building and moving the technology forward. PR is important, but with limited resources, is something that had to get scaled back when you have months of different projects and initiatives and development backlogged that we think will be great things for all our customers. Really, most posts from Daz people on here are on our spare time when we need a short break from our actual work of building things for you guys.

Jon,

Thanks very much for taking the time to comment, especially if you are doing it during your break time. I know from my own work what it's like to have to divide your time between different tasks, when each task seems to demand attention. Also I know what it's like when you are excited and inspired by the work you are doing, and I get the impression DAZ folks are like that. I'm sure DAZ has great things in store for us ( pardon the pun ), I would say though that a little time spent on communication, through forum posts, will surely help to keep customers engaged and also to encourage new customers.

DAZ_Jon

Believe it or not, even though Daz isn't active on the forums, most things do get read. With the whole 100/10/1 rule (and it very much applies to the forums) and even among the 1% of people in our customer base that post instead of just read, the opinions and "the right thing to do" are so varied and in a log of cases, headed in completely different directions, it is impossible to take any step that won't upset a segment of our customers and make another segment happy.

For a recent example of this, look at the changes Daz made to downloading content. With Install Manager and the Product Library, some see it now as the best way of any of the various stores out there to get and manage content. Others hate it because it doesn't do what they want and think is the best way to do things. Naturally if passions get so riled up on something like downloading files, the passions that get stirred when touching the figures and core technology is magnitudes greater. Given the natural tendency that if someone who likes something is a lot less vocal and not nearly as loud as those that are upset it is not hard to understand the huge difference in opinion of what people are being vocal about on the forums and what people are being vocal about it with their wallets. We do care about what our customers think, all 100% of them. That is why we do surveys, and look at traffic patterns and browsing trends and adoption rates based upon purchases as our main data points for "are we on the right track for the majority of our customers" and the forums for "was there huge mistakes we made that upset a large amount of customers we can avoid in the future."

DAZ_Jon

All that being said, I do think that it would help if Daz was more active on the forums. Negativity has a tendency to fester. Hence why I'm making an effort in my spare time to add some transparency and some communication from Daz, even if it is in a more unofficial capacity and not be the most polished word smith out there for PR purposes. But, I know for my team here (I was brought on to Daz shortly after the magento cut over to replace their web team with good web developers and fix the giant mess that was made... somethings which were so badly done we're still working to fix it) if the choice was between hiring a great forum community person or get a new developer to get you guys improved site features, studio 5, more QA support for the great PAs to get you more great new content, etc., I think most even here active on the forums would go for the latter.

But this is a bit off topic. V6, record launch, lots of people are loving it. I would trust that MallenLane has some cool things yet to come and that with the G2M base, even though it won't make everyone happy, will be a huge advancement over all other figures out there and the entire G2 base being the heads and shoulders the most advanced 3D figure out there (disclaimer, that is said with a background in e-commerce and web development and architecture, not 3D.. so I can't actually back that up). :)

DAZ_Jon

Seriously, broken smileys. Someone ought to fix that...