Show Us Your Iray Renders. Part III

DAZ_cjones

MEC4D said:

bellow is just displacement , model was modeled on level 7 what is DS 6 I think .. sub-d iray displacement was just 2 and the result was exactly the same what mean HD morph would never give me this details unless I set it to 6

Level 7 in ZBrush is indeed level 6 in DS. So Iray displacement 2 is the same as Zbrush 3. When Iray renders it does the max of the surfaces' subd-level (the ones in the surfaces pane) and the node's subd-level (the one in parameters). It does the node levels with OpenSubdiv's "Catmull–Clark" applying the HD morphs if they exist. It then has Iray do the remaining levels using Bi-Linear subdivision. So technically speaking it is not the exact same as ZBrush, probably very close but not exactly. You are missing details that come in on ZBrush levels 4, 5, 6 and 7 unless you also happen be using a normal map as well which may put them back in at least in appearance.

CypherFOX

Greetings,

pearbear said:

Have you tested the rocky displacement maps on a smaller piece of geometry, like maybe a small but high-poly primitive?

The way Iray uses displacement maps in DAZ, it needs to actually subdivide geometry for the added detail, multiplying the number of polys in the object exponentially with each subdivision. So a guess about what might be part of the trouble you're having is that subdividing a piece of really big geometry like terrain to a small enough level of detail for realistic close ups would create more polygons than the scene can handle.That's what I presume is going on, but I've tried setting the render subdivision to as much as my system can handle (and more, see 'crashes' above), and never gotten a decent image out of displacement mapping for terrain. I should do more debugging, with things like a 4-square with diagonal corners white vs black, and then red vs. blue, and use the first as displacement, the second as color, and then try tiling and comparing...

I'm curious to see a render of what you're getting though, to see if I'm understanding the problem.

With pleasure; the most recent image I've been working on has this problem in spades. Look at the rocks between the tracks under her feet.

I think that's with SubD 3 on that 'object'. Now if you ask if it's in the surface setting or in the parameters setting, I can't answer that... I'm at work, unfortunately, and can't pull up the scene itself.

One of the things that really bothers me is that you can see that it has a 'divot' that goes down halfway between her foot and the right side of the scene. I don't think that was there before I started trying to get it to subdivide. Which is one of the things that makes me wonder if the displacement mapping is being applied wrong when the underlying texture is tiling...

-- Morgan

pearbear

DAZ_cjones said:

MEC4D said:

bellow is just displacement , model was modeled on level 7 what is DS 6 I think .. sub-d iray displacement was just 2 and the result was exactly the same what mean HD morph would never give me this details unless I set it to 6

Level 7 in ZBrush is indeed level 6 in DS. So Iray displacement 2 is the same as Zbrush 3. When Iray renders it does the max of the surfaces' subd-level (the ones in the surfaces pane) and the node's subd-level (the one in parameters). It does the node levels with OpenSubdiv's "Catmull–Clark" applying the HD morphs if they exist. It then has Iray do the remaining levels using Bi-Linear subdivision. So technically speaking it is not the exact same as ZBrush, probably very close but not exactly. You are missing details that come in on ZBrush levels 4, 5, 6 and 7 unless you also happen be using a normal map as well which may put them back in at least in appearance.

Just to clarify for my own understanding - is Iray's final amount of displacement subdivision the node sub-d level plus the surface sub-d level? So if the figure is sub-d 2, and displacement sub-d is set at 2, the actual sub-d for displacement maps is 4? That was how it seemed to be working for me, and could explain how Mec4D's render is so detailed even though her Iray displacement sub-d was only set at 2.

pearbear

Cypherfox said:

Greetings,

pearbear said:

Have you tested the rocky displacement maps on a smaller piece of geometry, like maybe a small but high-poly primitive?

The way Iray uses displacement maps in DAZ, it needs to actually subdivide geometry for the added detail, multiplying the number of polys in the object exponentially with each subdivision. So a guess about what might be part of the trouble you're having is that subdividing a piece of really big geometry like terrain to a small enough level of detail for realistic close ups would create more polygons than the scene can handle.That's what I presume is going on, but I've tried setting the render subdivision to as much as my system can handle (and more, see 'crashes' above), and never gotten a decent image out of displacement mapping for terrain. I should do more debugging, with things like a 4-square with diagonal corners white vs black, and then red vs. blue, and use the first as displacement, the second as color, and then try tiling and comparing...

I'm curious to see a render of what you're getting though, to see if I'm understanding the problem.

With pleasure; the most recent image I've been working on has this problem in spades. Look at the rocks between the tracks under her feet.

I think that's with SubD 3 on that 'object'. Now if you ask if it's in the surface setting or in the parameters setting, I can't answer that... I'm at work, unfortunately, and can't pull up the scene itself.

One of the things that really bothers me is that you can see that it has a 'divot' that goes down halfway between her foot and the right side of the scene. I don't think that was there before I started trying to get it to subdivide. Which is one of the things that makes me wonder if the displacement mapping is being applied wrong when the underlying texture is tiling...

-- Morgan

If the rocky terrain goes back as far as it looks like it does here, I think it might just require way too many polys to get the detail of those small stones all the way down the tracks. Maybe experiment with putting the texture on a UV mapped high-poly primitive plane only as big as the visible area of the stones here, and putting it into the appropriate place in the scene.

DAZ_cjones

pearbear said:

DAZ_cjones said:

MEC4D said:

bellow is just displacement , model was modeled on level 7 what is DS 6 I think .. sub-d iray displacement was just 2 and the result was exactly the same what mean HD morph would never give me this details unless I set it to 6

Level 7 in ZBrush is indeed level 6 in DS. So Iray displacement 2 is the same as Zbrush 3. When Iray renders it does the max of the surfaces' subd-level (the ones in the surfaces pane) and the node's subd-level (the one in parameters). It does the node levels with OpenSubdiv's "Catmull–Clark" applying the HD morphs if they exist. It then has Iray do the remaining levels using Bi-Linear subdivision. So technically speaking it is not the exact same as ZBrush, probably very close but not exactly. You are missing details that come in on ZBrush levels 4, 5, 6 and 7 unless you also happen be using a normal map as well which may put them back in at least in appearance.

Just to clarify for my own understanding - is Iray's final amount of displacement subdivision the node sub-d level plus the surface sub-d level? So if the figure is sub-d 2, and displacement sub-d is set at 2, the actual sub-d for displacement maps is 4? That was how it seemed to be working for me, and could explain how Mec4D's render is so detailed even though her Iray displacement sub-d was only set at 2.

Unless there's a bug, its the max not the sum. Some examples:

figure sub-d 2; displacement sub-d at 2 = 2-"OpenSubdiv Catmull–Clark"; 0-" Iray Bilinear"
figure sub-d 3; displacement sub-d at 0 = 3-"OpenSubdiv Catmull–Clark"; 0-" Iray Bilinear"
figure sub-d 3; displacement sub-d at 4 = 3-"OpenSubdiv Catmull–Clark"; 1-" Iray Bilinear"
figure sub-d 1; displacement sub-d at 2 = 1-"OpenSubdiv Catmull–Clark"; 1-" Iray Bilinear"
figure sub-d 1; displacement sub-d at 4 = 1-"OpenSubdiv Catmull–Clark"; 3-" Iray Bilinear"

Midnight_stories

MEC4D said:

If I used HD or displacement it was all the same rendering time so not much differences here unless you getting crazy sub-d level, actually I love how displacement works in Iray it does not work as good before for me especially if you getting crazy with it
Now I know that what I model in Zbrush is exactly rendered in Iray .. who need HD morphs if displacement do exactly the same in Iray and not blowing off my models surface plus other applications like 3dmax or whatever users can use my product without to worry about HD morphs or pixel by pixel displacement .. now we can share stuff across Maya, 3Dmax etc.. and that is cooool ! including custom shaders .. the world doors just opened for DS

just my opinion on that and I am not going to stick with bump and normal maps only , why should I ... just because someone render with Pentium 2 PC ? lol

bellow is just displacement , model was modeled on level 7 what is DS 6 I think .. sub-d iray displacement was just 2 and the result was exactly the same what mean HD morph would never give me this details unless I set it to 6

midnight_stories said:

I was shatted to find displacement map were no good to use, Iray doesn't do them per pixel but by geometry sub divisions which kills the render time, so for now we have to stick with bump and normal maps, and I have to rethink how I model geometry now.

Well when I first reat this I was going to totally disagree with you but I remembered the last time I tested Displacement maps it was 2 builds back. I'm just trying it on a simple B&W Hex pattern. Before on Level4 Sub-Div it took 15min before starting to render, this time it took 40 sec to start a huge improvement. So I tried Level 5 no it went back to 15min before starting to render. So back down to level 4 but it started at 2.30 min this time I'm starting suspect there is something wronge with my system. But there is a big improvement from the first build to the one now. I don't have any Sub-D levels in my Sci_Fi Corridor, it's still a mystory to me how Iray approaches displacement does it convert it into voxels like octane render or is it like HD levels in ZBrush. My mesh is setup to be as low poly as I could get it, so if I divided normally it would collapse, where human figure have the poly's evenly distributed and wouldn't have that problem.

MEC4D

Yeah !!! works fine I see
you know before you can;t do anything because the back head have lower density that the front face but now you can add some extra subd to displacement and having perfect back head and face and that is a plus here with subd displacement maps
if you use the cage from the high sculpting as morph it will be even better on lower sub displacement level, make sure they are at last tif as jpg do bad stuff to the surface

pearbear said:

MEC4D said:

I use GOZ to export to Zbrush.. for work and stuff for JMCs and others , for my clothing exporting and importing manually
also it is better to export the morph from Zbrush and import manually at Cinema or lightwave profile so you have a copy in case DS crash before you saved it

the good thing is that after you created for example face displacement , you can import with GOZ back to studio with the values included for displacement maps and that is important so you don't guessing here for best result

much luck with GOZ

Yay, it worked! I tried it out with some quick alpha brush mech bolts using GOZ to Z-Brush and back. (sorry G2F, I know it ain't pretty) This is by far the best success I've had with displacement maps. I usually have issues with seams that are especially apparent when the figure is backlit like this. But it worked like a charm! I even put a giant bolt on the middle of the shoulder UV seam, and it matched up great. Figure is at sub-d 2 and displacement sub-d is at 3, working with no problems. This opens up a lot of possibilities for me, thank you for the great help! I owe you a Jack and Coke.

(edit - I cropped the photo because the bolts at the shoulder were just so ugly looking. A good test of displacement with strangely horrifying results)

MEC4D

I agree Chris, yes usually I do use normal maps as well , but the other was just a test to see the level of details with just displacement , I prefer displacement on the big parts of the sculpt and normal for the details , and for clothing only normal and bump maps
but my workflow is to sculpt first the base, polygon face by polygon face so later I don't have to do too much JMCs then switching to level 4 or 5 working on the smaller details and finally level 7-8 for the micro details , worked always for me without seams ever

It don't have to be super accurate between ZB and DS with displacement as normal give me the micro details I want anyway but closer enough to be happy with plus I can set the displacement level I want for the different surfaces so for the iris level 5 and for legs 3 .. just perfect lol

DAZ_cjones said:

MEC4D said:

bellow is just displacement , model was modeled on level 7 what is DS 6 I think .. sub-d iray displacement was just 2 and the result was exactly the same what mean HD morph would never give me this details unless I set it to 6

Level 7 in ZBrush is indeed level 6 in DS. So Iray displacement 2 is the same as Zbrush 3. When Iray renders it does the max of the surfaces' subd-level (the ones in the surfaces pane) and the node's subd-level (the one in parameters). It does the node levels with OpenSubdiv's "Catmull–Clark" applying the HD morphs if they exist. It then has Iray do the remaining levels using Bi-Linear subdivision. So technically speaking it is not the exact same as ZBrush, probably very close but not exactly. You are missing details that come in on ZBrush levels 4, 5, 6 and 7 unless you also happen be using a normal map as well which may put them back in at least in appearance.

MEC4D

I try to explain that using displacement on a base model will not give you the same details when using displacement on a cage from the sculpting , many people sculpt genesis and use just the displacement later without creating the cage from the high resolution and only this way you getting accurate details on less sub-d level of the displacement .. that's the way of doing stuff

DAZ_cjones said:

pearbear said:

DAZ_cjones said:

MEC4D said:

bellow is just displacement , model was modeled on level 7 what is DS 6 I think .. sub-d iray displacement was just 2 and the result was exactly the same what mean HD morph would never give me this details unless I set it to 6

Level 7 in ZBrush is indeed level 6 in DS. So Iray displacement 2 is the same as Zbrush 3. When Iray renders it does the max of the surfaces' subd-level (the ones in the surfaces pane) and the node's subd-level (the one in parameters). It does the node levels with OpenSubdiv's "Catmull–Clark" applying the HD morphs if they exist. It then has Iray do the remaining levels using Bi-Linear subdivision. So technically speaking it is not the exact same as ZBrush, probably very close but not exactly. You are missing details that come in on ZBrush levels 4, 5, 6 and 7 unless you also happen be using a normal map as well which may put them back in at least in appearance.

Just to clarify for my own understanding - is Iray's final amount of displacement subdivision the node sub-d level plus the surface sub-d level? So if the figure is sub-d 2, and displacement sub-d is set at 2, the actual sub-d for displacement maps is 4? That was how it seemed to be working for me, and could explain how Mec4D's render is so detailed even though her Iray displacement sub-d was only set at 2.

Unless there's a bug, its the max not the sum. Some examples:

figure sub-d 2; displacement sub-d at 2 = 2-"OpenSubdiv Catmull–Clark"; 0-" Iray Bilinear"
figure sub-d 3; displacement sub-d at 0 = 3-"OpenSubdiv Catmull–Clark"; 0-" Iray Bilinear"
figure sub-d 3; displacement sub-d at 4 = 3-"OpenSubdiv Catmull–Clark"; 1-" Iray Bilinear"
figure sub-d 1; displacement sub-d at 2 = 1-"OpenSubdiv Catmull–Clark"; 1-" Iray Bilinear"
figure sub-d 1; displacement sub-d at 4 = 1-"OpenSubdiv Catmull–Clark"; 3-" Iray Bilinear"

MEC4D

Everything depends also on CPU here , as loading the subd levels does not affect GPU unless it start really rendering then it kick on the GPU so having better card or worse will not make ant difference , the model make difference, I can load simple sphere and use level 8 without waiting .. then use torso of genesis and can't go there on so high level but why should I, don't need that high level of details for displacement for that are bump maps ans Normal maps.

regarding the other question maybe Chris know as programmer but I think it use the same as genesis depends of the level the main figure is on, but not HD like in Zbrush or Octane

midnight_stories said:

MEC4D said:

If I used HD or displacement it was all the same rendering time so not much differences here unless you getting crazy sub-d level, actually I love how displacement works in Iray it does not work as good before for me especially if you getting crazy with it
Now I know that what I model in Zbrush is exactly rendered in Iray .. who need HD morphs if displacement do exactly the same in Iray and not blowing off my models surface plus other applications like 3dmax or whatever users can use my product without to worry about HD morphs or pixel by pixel displacement .. now we can share stuff across Maya, 3Dmax etc.. and that is cooool ! including custom shaders .. the world doors just opened for DS

just my opinion on that and I am not going to stick with bump and normal maps only , why should I ... just because someone render with Pentium 2 PC ? lol

bellow is just displacement , model was modeled on level 7 what is DS 6 I think .. sub-d iray displacement was just 2 and the result was exactly the same what mean HD morph would never give me this details unless I set it to 6

midnight_stories said:

I was shatted to find displacement map were no good to use, Iray doesn't do them per pixel but by geometry sub divisions which kills the render time, so for now we have to stick with bump and normal maps, and I have to rethink how I model geometry now.

Well when I first reat this I was going to totally disagree with you but I remembered the last time I tested Displacement maps it was 2 builds back. I'm just trying it on a simple B&W Hex pattern. Before on Level4 Sub-Div it took 15min before starting to render, this time it took 40 sec to start a huge improvement. So I tried Level 5 no it went back to 15min before starting to render. So back down to level 4 but it started at 2.30 min this time I'm starting suspect there is something wronge with my system. But there is a big improvement from the first build to the one now. I don't have any Sub-D levels in my Sci_Fi Corridor, it's still a mystory to me how Iray approaches displacement does it convert it into voxels like octane render or is it like HD levels in ZBrush. My mesh is setup to be as low poly as I could get it, so if I divided normally it would collapse, where human figure have the poly's evenly distributed and wouldn't have that problem.

Digital Lite Design

Naked Butterflies - Because 'nature' should not have to wear clothes!

This one's for C.J. :)

MEC4D

That is good one Kat, love the little clothes all around the place haha

Digital Lite Design said:

Naked Butterflies - Because 'nature' should not have to wear clothes!

This one's for C.J. :)

Oso3D

Some work on an upcoming character. Combination of Bot Genesis and Supersuit, I'm pretty happy with how it came out.

Link is to first image, but there are three images (just navigate).

http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Mother-Bodyshot-533984106

Second-Circle

Got pointed here by the very helpful Lyoness. So much info my head's hurting, but great info. Have only been playing with this for a month or so and am pretty much clueless as to the use of the settings - just a lot of reading and tweaking.

barbult

second circle said:

Got pointed here by the very helpful Lyoness. So much info my head's hurting, but great info. Have only been playing with this for a month or so and am pretty much clueless as to the use of the settings - just a lot of reading and tweaking.

Welcome to the forums. I saw this in your gallery and liked it.

Musicplayer

second circle said:

Got pointed here by the very helpful Lyoness. So much info my head's hurting, but great info. Have only been playing with this for a month or so and am pretty much clueless as to the use of the settings - just a lot of reading and tweaking.

Wow, what a great render, and welcome to the forums. You certainly have got off to a flying start, and your DeviantArt gallery is amazing. Will follow you there, and look forward to more of your postings here.

Kind regards,

:-)

pearbear

Trying a Z-Brush body and head morph and displacement maps now that Mec4D has hipped me to GOZ. My displacement maps always came out blurry before, losing a lot of detail. I'm sure there was a way to get decent displacement maps exported from Z-Brush without GOZ, but I never quite figured it out. It's lit with sun/sky and a couple of spotlights for rim and fill, and finished with some Photoshop adjustments.

RAMWolff

second circle said:

Got pointed here by the very helpful Lyoness. So much info my head's hurting, but great info. Have only been playing with this for a month or so and am pretty much clueless as to the use of the settings - just a lot of reading and tweaking.

Welcome. She totally reminds me of a very young Julianne Moore

Mattymanx

second circle said:

Got pointed here by the very helpful Lyoness. So much info my head's hurting, but great info. Have only been playing with this for a month or so and am pretty much clueless as to the use of the settings - just a lot of reading and tweaking.

You dont seem clueless to me! Just sayin...

sheedee3D

Can some one please tell me where i can get the latest version of Daz Studio Public build (4.8.0.53) ?...

currently i am working with an early beta version.

alexhcowley

Stonemason said:

alexhcowley said:

Stonemason said:

trying out the new environment in Iray...

Stefan,

Your stuff always looks good in Iray. I do hope this light set is included with the scene when it's released.

Cheers,

Alex.

thanks , the light is just the sun/sky option in render settings so it's already in DS,all I did was dump the included skydome and adjust the hour setting

Cheers, Stefan.

Alex.

AlexLO

sheedee3D said:

Can some one please tell me where i can get the latest version of Daz Studio Public build (4.8.0.53) ?...

currently i am working with an early beta version.

Launch the DAZ Install Manager, and the latest Beta build should show up, if not, check the "display hidden" check box, and under download filters, make sure Public Build & Private Build are also checked.

jag11

sheedee3D said:

Can some one please tell me where i can get the latest version of Daz Studio Public build (4.8.0.53) ?...

currently i am working with an early beta version.

DAZ Install Manager is your fiend.

TJohn

jag11 said:

sheedee3D said:

Can some one please tell me where i can get the latest version of Daz Studio Public build (4.8.0.53) ?...

currently i am working with an early beta version.

DAZ Install Manager is your fiend.
Pun intended? :)

jag11

tjohn said:

jag11 said:

sheedee3D said:

Can some one please tell me where i can get the latest version of Daz Studio Public build (4.8.0.53) ?...

currently i am working with an early beta version.

DAZ Install Manager is your fiend.

Pun intended? :)

Yep, LOL.

MEC4D

Good job on the displa , well originally they should be blurry and have less details than bump maps , I wish Iray accept vector displacement .. my wish for so long to have it in DS

pearbear said:

Trying a Z-Brush body and head morph and displacement maps now that Mec4D has hipped me to GOZ. My displacement maps always came out blurry before, losing a lot of detail. I'm sure there was a way to get decent displacement maps exported from Z-Brush without GOZ, but I never quite figured it out. It's lit with sun/sky and a couple of spotlights for rim and fill, and finished with some Photoshop adjustments.

MEC4D

Agree....The worse part is that other people share our info we shared here on other websites as own settings
with attention to last details .. pure plagiarist !l lol

Mattymanx said:

You dont seem clueless to me! Just sayin...

SickleYield

MEC4D said:

Agree....The worse part is that other people share our info we shared here on other websites as own settings
with attention to last details .. pure plagiarist !l lol

Mattymanx said:

You dont seem clueless to me! Just sayin...

Personally, I always try to give credit if I put info from any one person in a tutorial. I would never do one for skin, though, I don't understand it well enough. ;p

tomtom.w

My first serious attempt at dark skin. Getting an even shine without looking oily proved to be trickier than I had expected, but I took the bumpmaps, increased the contrast, did some creative airbrushing here and there and added them to glossy color in the surfaces tab.

Jimbow

MEC4D said:

Nice one Jim, well done !

Cheers Kath! Love your grapes and whisky :)