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When it's easier to make women's clothing, adding this to men's clothing takes more time and drives up the price. When you see people not agree with the price of simpler items, this ultimately doesn't sound realistic when you have to make sure chains have movement morphs and external items don't clip each other. People say they want this, but ultimately people don't buy enough of it to make a return on their investment. I think that's what these threads always seem to miss every time they are created.
I think the more reasonable solution that will make more sense in these threads is if vendors are not creating what you want, or you're not willing to pay for the prices of the clothing when they are released, would be to ultimately learn to do some of the work yourself or learn to modify current items to suit your needs. That's one of my goals for this year is to start making clothing, though I doubt I would sell after reading these threads, it sounds like way too much hassle for the return and I can make what I want for my own needs. I got into making male morphs because I felt there were things I felt was missing, but even then I don't release everything because selling them wouldn't give me the return of making them production ready or I avoid certain types, like ethnic morphs because they always bring up the rear in sales.
You could save up for zbrush to make your own chains with the alpha brushes, or marvelous designer to make clothing or clothify clothing and make them morphs for your current items. They make be pricey up front, but they tend to pay back themselves through items that serve your personal work.
When it's easier to make women's clothing, adding this to men's clothing takes more time and drives up the price. When you see people not agree with the price of simpler items, this ultimately doesn't sound realistic when you have to make sure chains have movement morphs and external items don't clip each other. People say they want this, but ultimately people don't buy enough of it to make a return on their investment. I think that's what these threads always seem to miss every time they are created.
I think the more reasonable solution that will make more sense in these threads is if vendors are not creating what you want, or you're not willing to pay for the prices of the clothing when they are released, would be to ultimately learn to do some of the work yourself or learn to modify current items to suit your needs. That's one of my goals for this year is to start making clothing, though I doubt I would sell after reading these threads, it sounds like way too much hassle for the return and I can make what I want for my own needs. I got into making male morphs because I felt there were things I felt was missing, but even then I don't release everything because selling them wouldn't give me the return of making them production ready or I avoid certain types, like ethnic morphs because they always bring up the rear in sales.
You could save up for zbrush to make your own chains with the alpha brushes, or marvelous designer to make clothing or clothify clothing and make them morphs for your current items. They make be pricey up front, but they tend to pay back themselves through items that serve your personal work.
Yep I probably said it in a sharp tone, but I stand by my point. Take a look around the store and look at men clothing, especially pants and shoes and you will realize that there are only a handful of quality products in that regard. Of course there are good ones, I am not generalizing things for all items and saying all the creators arent bringing their a-game, since there are some very good items on the store for me, but you cannot always use the effort vs reward argument as an excuse for not giving as much effort for men clothes.
I understand that it takes alot of time to create clothing, I constantly modify items for my own needs, like creating custom morphs, painting texture changes, add needed props etc. This always takes time and I dont think I am in the majority of the userbase, most users probably do not like to mess with tech things and rather prefer to use whats given to them instead of spending hours to suit it to their needs.
The argument of effort vs reward always comes up of course, and while I understand it and its a logical one to bring up, it should not be used as a general excuse to put out mediocre items. Because if it comes down to this, its no wonder that men items wont sell very well compared to women clothes, because now you are making it even worse by not spending as much effort on them anymore. I do not imply that every content creator goes about it like that, but when you are using this argument as the biggest one, then you should allow for a customer to question the intentions of the creator. If the only reason to create the cloth is to just see the monetary gain, and not the intention of providing the best possible quality, that does not speak well for themselves, or does it?
Yep I probably said it in a sharp tone, but I stand by my point. Take a look around the store and look at men clothing, especially pants and shoes and you will realize that there are only a handful of quality products in that regard. Of course there are good ones, I am not generalizing things for all items and saying all the creators arent bringing their a-game, since there are some very good items on the store for me, but you cannot always use the effort vs reward argument as an excuse for not giving as much effort for men clothes.
I understand that it takes alot of time to create clothing, I constantly modify items for my own needs, like creating custom morphs, painting texture changes, add needed props etc. This always takes time and I dont think I am in the majority of the userbase, most users probably do not like to mess with tech things and rather prefer to use whats given to them instead of spending hours to suit it to their needs.
The argument of effort vs reward always comes up of course, and while I understand it and its a logical one to bring up, it should not be used as a general excuse to put out mediocre items. Because if it comes down to this, its no wonder that men items wont sell very well compared to women clothes, because now you are making it even worse by not spending as much effort on them anymore. I do not imply that every content creator goes about it like that, but when you are using this argument as the biggest one, then you should allow for a customer to question the intentions of the creator. If the only reason to create the cloth is to just see the monetary gain, and not the intention of providing the best possible quality, that does not speak well for themselves, or does it?
Really it comes down to personal taste. Some see issues where are there none and vice versa. And if things aren't meeting your expectations and the situation won't change from a vendor's standpoint, then my option of making things how you want them to work comes into play. Implying vendors should step up their game, when that's really not the issue won't produce the results you intend.
I do think some vendors need to step up their game where clothing is concerned in general but yes men's clothing is often lacking detail in particular sorry, nope, don't have time to learn to do 3d modeling. Especially with the reality of Iray, clothing that looks less real is quite an eyesore. Same goes with hair.
3d Delight was far more forgiving of cartoonish clothing than Iray is.
I think Heinzor clothing suggestions look nice. I agree entirely.
Yes I agree with you, and I wont cry out if nothing changes, but I still like to give my input and suggestions as to what type of cloth I like to see more. Thats all I can do anyways. Not trying to sway anyone elses oppinion. Hopefully someone takes a look at the stuff I posted and creates something out of that assortment. I would surely buy it and I also dont have any issue with paying a bit more if the quality is there.
As a creator of any type of art, and thats still what it is that is being sold in the DAZ store, you should value feedback and especially negative feedback since thats the feedback that helps you in getting better.
I generally render my men in their underwear so I'm good. However, I doubt anything will change regardless; it is what it is.
If you have never done any modelling or tried rigging you should not be suggesting vendors need to step up their game, it is a lot hard than people think.
I am not a paid actor, but holy poot, I'm happy I got Genesis Supersuit.
Sure, it's not really modern male outfits like we've been discussing, but it's filling in a WHOLE lot of gaps for dressing all my characters. Jumpsuits, spacesuits, armor, etc.
Sure I can. I think people can always do better, myself included. That is the nature of work and art. . And I'm sure PA's do that. So stepping up their game is just not being complacent and making the same' ol' same ol'.
But there are PA's who make great and detailed products. Then there are others who don't add zippers or even waistbands to their male pants, or make shiny textures for their outfits.
I will complain about it and ask for change. Whether I get it is another matter.
Not trying to argue with anyone, but you should not assume things you dont know about others. There is a difference between making suggestions and making assumptions.
Ridiculous! What a double standard that you are willing to accept the views of vendors who have not made clothes but you negate the views of a paying customer.
One does not need to have products in the store to understand the challenges of rigging and modeling. Anyone can study the meshes in Studio or their preferred modeling application and see where corners are cut or how something is made. The tools to create content come with Daz Studio itself, they are not only available to a select few. Those tools do some of the work for you - unlike before where things had to be done by hand. Things used to not be automated, maybe some don't remember?
IgnisSerpentus pointed out that their products are created from a single vertex. That is great news, I applaud them for that! :)
But that is not the case with many of the offerings in this store or at others.
No one is saying content creation is not hard - they are merely pointing out the discrepancy in quality, availability and price.
As customers, they should be able to say so and not be attacked.
Isn't there a common ground we can meet at?
Sure I can. I think people can always do better, myself included. That is the nature of work and art. . And I'm sure PA's do that. So stepping up their game is just not being complacent and making the same' ol' same ol'.
But there are PA's who make great and detailed products. Then there are others who don't add zippers or even waistbands to their male pants, or make shiny textures for their outfits.
I will complain about it and ask for change. Whether I get it is another matter.
Sounds like a stalemate to me. I think you are missing something:
You are asking someone to make something they don't have to because of low sales. You are asking for a favor from those vendors. Do you get to absolutely dictate favors from people that are taking their time out to accommodate you when they could be doing something else making more money?
No you can't.
Should there be some compromise in there so you can get more of you need? I think there needs to be, because honest and bluntly: beggars can't be choosers. Make it work, buy to encourage then do provide better work or don't buy and don't get anything but partication in threads that go nowhere or learn to make things that will fill those gaps. Those are really your options because really the goal is to get more vendors to make more male items and making demands won't accomplish that and never have. You could say that you can vote with your wallet, but the vote has already happened in favor of lots of female clothing.
So you can participate in how many of these threads as you like, but until you realize that, as someone that wants something that doesn't exist because the sales aren't there, compromise and encouragement and buying are really your only tools to affect change, nothing will be accomplished.
the alternative is to learn the modelling, rigging and texturing and make the clothing you want, yourself?
It's annoying when you don't represent the bulk of the market. I sure don't.
Half the promos make me roll my eyes, what with all the teen implanted stripper stuff. Ugh.
But hey, what can you do.
For that to change your going to have to go out and change the way the human libido works and or prevent it from influencing society. Maybe you know of a way to make a huge number of men stop fancying large breasted, lightly dressed young women but I do not. Nor do I think the world would really be noticeably improved if that changed.
Given artists are not overwhelmingly male and gay people exist, I suspect there's a groupthink involved. And I disagree strongly with your last sentence.
But politics is probably best avoided on this forum.
Historically the art world has been, and in many ways still is, dominated by men. Statistically speaking this market has a higher than normal male to female balance. I'm not saying I like the status quo. I am a woman and in touch with the equities of being one. I'm also a realist about who is around to be spending money.
Im a chick. Im straight. I make big bewbed amazons. Cant argue with sales figures.
That said, Im also a bit of a tom boy... Id more than happily make hawt male stuff too.... but... cant argue with sales figures.
Um... create 3D clothing to one's own taste and then offer it for sale to cover costs? If you don't have the skill set or expertise, there are plenty of 3D artists who do commission work. The problem, of course, is that if you're wrong and what you want to make doesn't sell well enough to pay back expenses, it's money down the drain. And that's the situation most PAs are in. You can't really blame anyone for focusing on the sure thing when the alternative means taking the risk of losing one's shirt.
I don't believe in justifying my purchases here at Daz's store and not going to start. People should be free to buy and create what they want.
I hope we see more men's content on the market but if not I will survive.
I do wonder what efforts are being made to advertise male figures? I can't recall seeing off site adverts for any male bases. But I've seen plenty of advertising prompting female figures. I'm curious what if any advertising is done to target and bring in more people who illustrate males.
It simple retail economics and I don't think Daz is going to change that by having more vendors produce clothing for a species that would rather wear the same thing for a month then be harassed by some broad who wants him to change is underwear.
All I need is a pair of slacks and suspenders and I'm all dressed for the a night at the opera or foxy boxing behind a dumpster in an alley.
omg pleeeeease. Maybe every now and then? I love the current, if only few, male items you sell.
Greetings,
I found numbers for 2013, at least in the US...
Men's apparel U.S. retail sales were $60.8B with growth in outerwear (because of weather conditions), pants, and socks.
Women's apparel U.S. retail sales were $116.4, nearly double mens, with (again) outerwear one of the bigger gainers.
So we have a 2:1 advantage to sales for women's clothing in the real world. In the limited market that we have here at DAZ (and other stores) it's going to be even more extreme. In the real world, specialty mens stores (and departments of stores) can exist because they appeal to everyone. Scale makes it easier when your TAM is roughly one out of every two people in the region (or world, if you're an online retailer).
So no, there'll never be parity, and that's okay. But there are some very nice male 3D clothes out there, and you should enjoy them. Render with them and share the renders widely. Show folks what can/should be done, and encourage folks to buy the male stuff that you like. (Don't discourage folks from buying the male stuff you don't like; that's just (1) rude, and (2) counterproductive.)
Edit:
Fun fact! In a 2005 study, based on 53,000 flyers sent out, the inclusion of a photo of a woman (of any race) boosted the response rate from men, who were prepared to take up loan offers on high interest rates. Mind you the same effect wasn't seen on women, but there was also no negative reaction.There are also extensive studies of online advertising that suggest that including a gaze-averted face (especially if it's looking in the direction of content/call-to-action that you want to emphasize) has statistically significantly better outcomes. Mind you DAZ uses a gaze-engaging (direct look) image most of the time, but the point remains...they advertise the way they do because it has positive results with males, and neutral results with females (no worse than a male face would).
-- Morgan
This market is over 70% male users. It is safe to assume majority of those male users are into females and prefer to do female renders. (Look at the male to female ratio of renders in the gallery as well) So, with that in mind, the demand for males content isn't that high unless the actual customer base changes. Us vendors cater for demand by nature. So unless the demand is backed up by sales figures, nothing will really change. Most of us do this for a living and cannot just create something for the sole purpose of pleasing others. Trust me we would if we could. Now, there are a few male content items that are essential, however look past that, and it's a scrap to make a decent return on anything else. Then again, since the clothing can work on females as well, that could change the dynamic. Lot's of people these days are cross dressing lol, well ya know what I mean. So some people will buy male content strictly for use on females, or both.
Overall, it is not easy making a high return on a male item. EG somebody can spend over a month crafting a male item that is awesome in every way, and along comes somebody else who just spent a week on a bikini and that doubles sales. The world is a cruel place :P With all that said and done, I have the utmost respect for those who try and make a difference catering for the male market.
And, just to prove a point: if one applies that same outfit and statement to a guy, the average response will probably be something along the lines of "eh, dude, put on a shirt!" But apply the exact same (apparently shirtless) outfit and statement to a girl, and the response is more likely to be "WHOA! THAT'S HOT!!!"
To address some comments from earlier, without quotes:
1: Any Artist/Vendor Has the right to to work on or not work on anything they so wish. Whether it's based on there ROI assessment, or just what they want to do. They also have the right to price there stuff at whatever they want, As long as they are within there agreements with Daz.
2: I the customer, am within my rights to purchase or not purchase said items based on whatever reasons I choose. I get to make the call on whether said item is worth what I'm going to spend. My choice to wait for a better sale is still a valid reason.
3: Calling a Vendor out because the posted Some Sub-Standard item is within my rights as a customer. It really doesn't matter if the artist put 4 minutes or 4 months into a product. All that really matters is the end result, and a sub-par item is still a sub-par item. There are several outfits both male and female that I find seriously sub-par. Saying that vendors will need to step up their Game if they want to compete in the Post-Iray Era isn't a demand, it's a prediction, any vendor that doesn't will likely be left behind.
4: As a customer, I have the right to demand better products. However, end of the day, my only power to back up that demand is what I'm willing to spend. If the Vendors ignore me, the Customer, well, Not much more I can do. Such is the fate of the minor markets.
5: Telling customers to go away and make it themselves is a sure way to loose customers. Telling me, the customer to shut up and buy what I put out, regardless of the quality is a sure way to loose me as a customer.
6: Telling people to try making it themselves is a solid suggestion, as it gives people a better understanding of the value of the work.
7: I fully admit that the numbers and market favor female clothing. Just basic reality. Straight Women are far more likely to include sexy female characters, both naked and nearly naked in there work Than Straight Guys are to include Sexy guys... Target Audience really is everything.
8: In my opinion, any Artist that does work for public consumption that can't take criticism or negative feedback, probably should be working publicly. The old line "Everyone's a Critic" is an old line for a reason. Everyone's a Critic, and they aren't all nice. Negative Criticism sucks, but sometimes once you work past the sting, you realize it's accurate.
Wow... Now that that has been said... This thread has taken a decisively negative tone, Not really where I wanted it to go. So instead of Focusing on the Negative, lets look at the positive, and post the male outfits you like:
Some outfits I really like are:
Town And Country: by Mada (is a DO): This set is very versatile, ranging from semi-formal to sexy casual. includes several textures as well and has several morphs, I really like this set
The Hitman: by Bobbie25, Sarsa (is a DO) a simpler Slacks, tanktop, overshirt. But the overshirt has a very Hawaiian feel, making it easy to retexture using only diffuse color and some tie-dye panels.
Summer on the River: by Bobbie25, Sarsa (is a DO) A simple jean Shorts shirt combo. Not nearly as versatile as many others, but has a great huck finn/ Tom Sawyor feel...
Onyx: By Ravenhair (a DO): A Punk Style that I really like, the base item is a little plain, but easily mixed-matches with several pieces and accessories.
GIS: By Ravenhair (a DO): A little futuristic, and the base item is fairy plain, but has several great texture packs ready to go, and makes for a nice scifi para-military/police uniform.
Dirty Denim: By Sickleyield : A nice set of denim Jeans with easily the best open fly, pants down morph I've found. comes in relaxed fix/skinny jeans, and has several distresses/ hole textures as well.
Some that I haven't tried yet, but are on my Wishlist
Adventurer Jacket https://www.daz3d.com/adventure-s-jacket-for-genesis-2-male-s
Casual Jacket https://www.daz3d.com/casual-jacket-for-genesis-2-male-s
Highland Lad https://www.daz3d.com/highland-lad
If these look as good in my renders as they do in the promos, I'll be very happy.
Wat are some that you'd recommend?
Great post!
Here's mine:
Mech Gear for Genesis 2 Males:
A superior piece of work. Loads of detail. Great helmet. No rough areas. Looks great on characters. My latest favorite because it looks great and works so well on Gen 2 Male and doesn't have that distortion problem many gen 2 clothing has.
Soldier for genesis 2 males. Nice suit. Good details. Extra textures. Problems areas with the belts and grenades. Overall highly useful piece
Corsair for M5 and Genesis This is a period-looking piece but I really like the accessories, pants and boots. Plus a great scarf for covering the head. I use the pants for other sci-fi projects. The boots are really in particular very well done as they have well done treads which is a detail often overlooked.
AR Wrath Marines/Coalition Rapier/Coalition Claymore: Nice set of battle gear for gen 4 characters. Great textures. Render well. Holds its own in today's market.
Galactic Force for Gen 2 Males: Nice outfit. Great basic. Several textures. Looks good on characters. Nice Mat zones. Useful.
Cyberpunk for M4- Just lots of good stuff in this set. You get a lot including poses, textures, clothing, shoes, weaponry and cybernetic parts. This is a great set, and so very useful for its sheer versatility.
Greetings,
Ah; recommendations I can get behind!
You owe it to yourself to get Streetwear's T-shirt (m6) and Sneakers (Genesis male) if you do present-day (+/- 25 years) renders. It's Stonemason, for gosh's sake. The Jeans (Genesis) are also good, including an M5 morph.
Pretty much any male thing from Luthbel is awesome, if your world isn't more 'today'-like. I have a personal fondness for the Jack of Hearts.
I had good luck converting Stylin' for M4 to Genesis, and it's a nice top. Nowadays I'd probably go for JoeQuick's Cutting Loose.
I absolutely ADORE DarioFish's G2M cyberpunk (and similar) stuff on 'rosity, as well as JoeQuick's cyberarms here.
That's just a few of the G2M-focused things I've found to be particularly awesome.
-- Morgan
Very awesome points cdemerit, and very well said! :)
Can't take the heat? What are you doing here?? Move along, let the rest of us play in here.
I personally like the creations made by OOT over at the other store.
Very nice topology, included fitting/movement morphs, more than one texture usually. Price is not bad at all either.
And yes, I buy his skimpwear - mostly because it includes what I listed above. :)
JoeQuick and SickleYield are my top faves here for clothing.
Again, nice clean topology, morphs, texture options, and non-inflated prices.
There are a couple sets that were made for M4 that I'd like to see updated for G2M.
Yes, I know I can use autofit blah blah. But more like an overhaul or remake of sorts.
Like what they did with the Major Cache and Hardcore outfits?
They'd prob still be a rehash, but could maybe allow for some new options and textures to be made?
- Uzilite outfits
- http://www.daz3d.com/m4-undergarments
Hmm, I wonder how I get on that team? :)
(jots down some of the suggestions from thread. ;)