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Kwan 8

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  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679
    Maybe I missed it, but what gpu do you have @divamakeup? Is it RTX? We have seen that RTX does better as geometry becomes more complex, which could explain why the HD rendered faster. It could also be how Iray calculates multiple surfaces. The fewer surfaces Iray needs to calculate for, the faster it will be.

    I recall recently the Unreal 5 demo that Epic showed. They spoke about how it handles geometry, and that because it could handle geometry so well the environmental assets in the demo were not using normal maps. This may not relate to Iray, but it shows that technology is reaching a point to where we may not need normal maps much anymore. The same can be true of bump maps.
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 17,675
    edited July 2020

    I think the wrestling content is pretty versatile. It doesn't need to be wrestling outfits. It could be... Superhero or just plain sci-fi.

    Rumble.jpg
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    Post edited by Serene Night on
  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,438

    I wonder which way the inspiration goes between wrestling outfits and superhero styles as they do often have a lot of common elements.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,316
    edited July 2020
    TesseractSpace said:

    I wonder which way the inspiration goes between wrestling outfits and superhero styles as they do often have a lot of common elements.

    They are both based off of real clothing designed for athletics. The real wrestling clothing came first. They had to be durable and made so as not to give your opponent an advantage. 

    https://mwolverine.com/Olympic_Wrestling_History.html

    There was wrestling prior to the Olympics being restarted as well. 

    The shiny metallic colors I think are all professional wrestling / superhero embellishments for showmanship as I'm pretty sure those embellishments weaken the structural strength of the uniforms.

    Here is an interesting comics summary from the 20th century too (although comics existed beforehand too):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1900s_in_comics

    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 15,225
    edited July 2020
    TesseractSpace said:

    I wonder which way the inspiration goes between wrestling outfits and superhero styles as they do often have a lot of common elements.

    The combination wrestler / superhero goes way, way back.  Perhaps most iconic was the great Santo.

    In addition to his wrestling career, Santo made about 50 movies fighting off vampire women, zombies, Frankenstein's daughter, etc, etc, etc.  Here is a trailer for one of the movies.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG4MkZNx59o

    And here is some biographical info from his IMDB page.

     

     

    santo imdb.jpg
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    Post edited by Diomede on
  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746
    outrider42 said:
    Maybe I missed it, but what gpu do you have @divamakeup? Is it RTX? We have seen that RTX does better as geometry becomes more complex, which could explain why the HD rendered faster. It could also be how Iray calculates multiple surfaces. The fewer surfaces Iray needs to calculate for, the faster it will be.

     

    I recall recently the Unreal 5 demo that Epic showed. They spoke about how it handles geometry, and that because it could handle geometry so well the environmental assets in the demo were not using normal maps. This may not relate to Iray, but it shows that technology is reaching a point to where we may not need normal maps much anymore. The same can be true of bump maps.

    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti

  • ATLPRATLPR Posts: 147
    edited July 2020
    manekiNeko said:
    ATLPR said:
    manekiNeko said:

    watching too many series ;)

    Seems you can learn more from a series than I ever realized ... when I use to watch kung-fu theater, I was purely watching the moves ... All I know is when I watch, I suddenly have a smile from ear to ear!

    e.g. https://youtu.be/dhWbAENwcWs?t=25

    Thank you for replying

    Post edited by ATLPR on
  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679
    Divamakeup said:
    outrider42 said:
    Maybe I missed it, but what gpu do you have @divamakeup? Is it RTX? We have seen that RTX does better as geometry becomes more complex, which could explain why the HD rendered faster. It could also be how Iray calculates multiple surfaces. The fewer surfaces Iray needs to calculate for, the faster it will be.

     

    I recall recently the Unreal 5 demo that Epic showed. They spoke about how it handles geometry, and that because it could handle geometry so well the environmental assets in the demo were not using normal maps. This may not relate to Iray, but it shows that technology is reaching a point to where we may not need normal maps much anymore. The same can be true of bump maps.

    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti

    Very interesting. A powerful card but not RTX. I wonder if other weaker GPUs would get results like yours. I cannot say...I have two 1080tis, LOL. I could try this with other models and see if they get similar results. I may try some bluejaunte characters. I wonder if the file size of the normal maps have an effect. Some models have normal maps in less compressed formats that are huge.

    Which brings up another question, how about VRAM use? Turning off a bunch of normal and bump maps may help VRAM, depending on how much VRAM each HD subdivision takes. There are lot of things to look at here. I am thinking we might be able to save VRAM skipping the normals and using HD. That could be a big win for those looking to squeeze as much into their scene as they can.

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746

    Kwan 8 with the Modern Military Outfit:

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746
    edited July 2020
    outrider42 said:
    Divamakeup said:
    outrider42 said:
    Maybe I missed it, but what gpu do you have @divamakeup? Is it RTX? We have seen that RTX does better as geometry becomes more complex, which could explain why the HD rendered faster. It could also be how Iray calculates multiple surfaces. The fewer surfaces Iray needs to calculate for, the faster it will be.

     

    I recall recently the Unreal 5 demo that Epic showed. They spoke about how it handles geometry, and that because it could handle geometry so well the environmental assets in the demo were not using normal maps. This may not relate to Iray, but it shows that technology is reaching a point to where we may not need normal maps much anymore. The same can be true of bump maps.

    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti

    Very interesting. A powerful card but not RTX. I wonder if other weaker GPUs would get results like yours. I cannot say...I have two 1080tis, LOL. I could try this with other models and see if they get similar results. I may try some bluejaunte characters. I wonder if the file size of the normal maps have an effect. Some models have normal maps in less compressed formats that are huge.

    Which brings up another question, how about VRAM use? Turning off a bunch of normal and bump maps may help VRAM, depending on how much VRAM each HD subdivision takes. There are lot of things to look at here. I am thinking we might be able to save VRAM skipping the normals and using HD. That could be a big win for those looking to squeeze as much into their scene as they can.

    Yeah, it's an interesting topic, imo - it would be neat to do some more testing to see if there is a way to pin down "optimal" set up for speed for different types of renders. However, there are so many different variables that can factor in performance and render speed, that it might be difficult to pinpoint "optimal" setups that are "universal" across different machines and video cards (not to mention different versions of Daz Studio as well). Still, I find the subject pretty interesting and it would be nice to be able to pinpoint more optimal surface settings and HD vs Normals vs Bump usage that could make more clear what may be more useful for different types of scenes. 

    Post edited by 3Diva on
  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679
    Divamakeup said:
    outrider42 said:
    Divamakeup said:
    outrider42 said:
    Maybe I missed it, but what gpu do you have @divamakeup? Is it RTX? We have seen that RTX does better as geometry becomes more complex, which could explain why the HD rendered faster. It could also be how Iray calculates multiple surfaces. The fewer surfaces Iray needs to calculate for, the faster it will be.

     

    I recall recently the Unreal 5 demo that Epic showed. They spoke about how it handles geometry, and that because it could handle geometry so well the environmental assets in the demo were not using normal maps. This may not relate to Iray, but it shows that technology is reaching a point to where we may not need normal maps much anymore. The same can be true of bump maps.

    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti

    Very interesting. A powerful card but not RTX. I wonder if other weaker GPUs would get results like yours. I cannot say...I have two 1080tis, LOL. I could try this with other models and see if they get similar results. I may try some bluejaunte characters. I wonder if the file size of the normal maps have an effect. Some models have normal maps in less compressed formats that are huge.

    Which brings up another question, how about VRAM use? Turning off a bunch of normal and bump maps may help VRAM, depending on how much VRAM each HD subdivision takes. There are lot of things to look at here. I am thinking we might be able to save VRAM skipping the normals and using HD. That could be a big win for those looking to squeeze as much into their scene as they can.

    Yeah, it's an interesting topic, imo - it would be neat to do some more testing to see if there is a way to pin down "optimal" set up for speed for different types of renders. However, there are so many different variables that can factor in performance and render speed, that it might be difficult to pinpoint "optimal" setups that are "universal" across different machines and video cards (not to mention different versions of Daz Studio as well). Still, I find the subject pretty interesting and it would be nice to be able to pinpoint more optimal surface settings and HD vs Normals vs Bump usage that could make more clear what may be more useful for different types of scenes. 

    I did some testing with a bluejaunte character, and found some similar results. Using the normal maps took a few seconds longer. However, what I discovered with this character is that the HD shape is not a replacement for the normal maps. They work together to complete the character, so removing one or the other was not ideal. I imagine a lot of non DO characters are like that.

    So for this to work, the characters in question must use HD as a full replacement for normal maps. It is likely that only Daz Originals do this, since the HD morph is usually sold as a separate product.

    But I did get some data. Increasing the subD from 1 to 3 had almost no effect on render times, it didn't even effect VRAM usage much. SubD 5 however ballooned both quite a bit. SubD 5 used over 1GB more VRAM and took over a minute longer to render. I feel pretty confident that this trend would hold up for a lot of other characters. Deleting the normal maps improved render times by 20 seconds in a 2 minute render, and all levels of subD still rendered faster  without normals, except for 5.

    However, I don't have a ton of HD morphs for DO's. I have Zelara's. And looking at her, she has separate character presets. Zelara HD has her own preset, so I loaded both. It turns out that loading Zelara HD's preset contains no normal maps. I cannot believe I never noticed that. I made a render of her two versions side by side at 6000 pixels, and the difference is very hard to spot, if at all. I will try some more testing on her tomorrow to see if the HD renders faster.

    I might make a separate thread to avoid cluttering this one. Or you can. Doesn't matter.

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746
    edited July 2020
    outrider42 said:
    Divamakeup said:
    outrider42 said:
    Divamakeup said:
    outrider42 said:
    Maybe I missed it, but what gpu do you have @divamakeup? Is it RTX? We have seen that RTX does better as geometry becomes more complex, which could explain why the HD rendered faster. It could also be how Iray calculates multiple surfaces. The fewer surfaces Iray needs to calculate for, the faster it will be.

     

    I recall recently the Unreal 5 demo that Epic showed. They spoke about how it handles geometry, and that because it could handle geometry so well the environmental assets in the demo were not using normal maps. This may not relate to Iray, but it shows that technology is reaching a point to where we may not need normal maps much anymore. The same can be true of bump maps.

    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti

    Very interesting. A powerful card but not RTX. I wonder if other weaker GPUs would get results like yours. I cannot say...I have two 1080tis, LOL. I could try this with other models and see if they get similar results. I may try some bluejaunte characters. I wonder if the file size of the normal maps have an effect. Some models have normal maps in less compressed formats that are huge.

    Which brings up another question, how about VRAM use? Turning off a bunch of normal and bump maps may help VRAM, depending on how much VRAM each HD subdivision takes. There are lot of things to look at here. I am thinking we might be able to save VRAM skipping the normals and using HD. That could be a big win for those looking to squeeze as much into their scene as they can.

    Yeah, it's an interesting topic, imo - it would be neat to do some more testing to see if there is a way to pin down "optimal" set up for speed for different types of renders. However, there are so many different variables that can factor in performance and render speed, that it might be difficult to pinpoint "optimal" setups that are "universal" across different machines and video cards (not to mention different versions of Daz Studio as well). Still, I find the subject pretty interesting and it would be nice to be able to pinpoint more optimal surface settings and HD vs Normals vs Bump usage that could make more clear what may be more useful for different types of scenes. 

    I did some testing with a bluejaunte character, and found some similar results. Using the normal maps took a few seconds longer. However, what I discovered with this character is that the HD shape is not a replacement for the normal maps. They work together to complete the character, so removing one or the other was not ideal. I imagine a lot of non DO characters are like that.

    So for this to work, the characters in question must use HD as a full replacement for normal maps. It is likely that only Daz Originals do this, since the HD morph is usually sold as a separate product.

    But I did get some data. Increasing the subD from 1 to 3 had almost no effect on render times, it didn't even effect VRAM usage much. SubD 5 however ballooned both quite a bit. SubD 5 used over 1GB more VRAM and took over a minute longer to render. I feel pretty confident that this trend would hold up for a lot of other characters. Deleting the normal maps improved render times by 20 seconds in a 2 minute render, and all levels of subD still rendered faster  without normals, except for 5.

    However, I don't have a ton of HD morphs for DO's. I have Zelara's. And looking at her, she has separate character presets. Zelara HD has her own preset, so I loaded both. It turns out that loading Zelara HD's preset contains no normal maps. I cannot believe I never noticed that. I made a render of her two versions side by side at 6000 pixels, and the difference is very hard to spot, if at all. I will try some more testing on her tomorrow to see if the HD renders faster.

    I might make a separate thread to avoid cluttering this one. Or you can. Doesn't matter.

    Yeah I believe all the Daz Original "Official 8" HD figures load without any normal maps. And I've tested the HD vs Normal Maps again and consistently keep seeing slightly faster render times with HD with No Normal Maps (or Normal Maps dialled to 0) vs NON-HD figures with Normal Maps. If you end up starting a thread about it let me know. I'd love to check it out. :) Maybe we could get people with other video cards to also do a couple of test renders. I find it pretty interesting since I always thought Normal Maps where a good replacement for HDs that gave faster render times vs HD. It would be interesting if that turns out not to be the case - with the tests I've done so far, it's kind of starting to look like that. lol So weird.

    Post edited by 3Diva on
  • timsw6timsw6 Posts: 39

    I think Kwan 8 is perhaps GM8's most handsome and  more realistic characters. I've was initially  unsure of the pronounced ripped 'Bruce Lee'  Abs  but they seem to render well as does the skin. A great addition from DAZ.

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  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746
    edited July 2020
    vwrangler said:
    Serene Night said:

    Okay, so that's the Kwan's. Overall, I can say I really like Kwan!  He looks fantastic, and is more realistic than a lot of DAZ store's recent figures. But I am seriously sad there are only 3. Where are the rest? This is the first bundle in a while where there is are no other character add-ons. This is particularly sad, because Kwan 8 is just.... Such an amazing character. Also where is the wrestling content? Not even a singlet? I'm okay with the sci-fi stuff, but... It would be great to at least have one wrestling outfit. 

    The Invincible outfit can sorta kinda vaguely maybe pass for an amateur outfit. If you make a transmap to cut it off at the knees, anyway. Kind of surprised that they didn't make a male amateur outfit to match the female one they did for Kayo, though.

    You could use the one made for G8F: https://www.daz3d.com/amateur-wrestler-outfit-for-genesis-8-female     https://www.daz3d.com/amateur-wrestler-outfit-textures

    It seems to autofit to G8M pretty well, though I did need to add a push modifier to it to clear some of Kwan 8's HD bits:

    G8M - Kwan 8 HD w Amateur Wrestling Outfit.png
    1000 x 1300 - 632K
    Post edited by 3Diva on
  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 6,057
    edited July 2020
    Divamakeup said:

    Kwan 8 with the Modern Military Outfit:

    Thanks for the render. I haven't tested any of Kwan 8's clothing, and this shows me I'll need to substitute the helmet and boots with, respectively, HH's Tactical Assault UCMC Add-On and Slide3d's Military Boots from Rendo. The sleeves of the shirt look a bit Play-Dohish, and I'm not sure what to do about that.

    Post edited by xyer0 on
  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679
    Divamakeup said:
    outrider42 said:
    Divamakeup said:
    outrider42 said:
    Divamakeup said:
    outrider42 said:
    Maybe I missed it, but what gpu do you have @divamakeup? Is it RTX? We have seen that RTX does better as geometry becomes more complex, which could explain why the HD rendered faster. It could also be how Iray calculates multiple surfaces. The fewer surfaces Iray needs to calculate for, the faster it will be.

     

    I recall recently the Unreal 5 demo that Epic showed. They spoke about how it handles geometry, and that because it could handle geometry so well the environmental assets in the demo were not using normal maps. This may not relate to Iray, but it shows that technology is reaching a point to where we may not need normal maps much anymore. The same can be true of bump maps.

    NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti

    Very interesting. A powerful card but not RTX. I wonder if other weaker GPUs would get results like yours. I cannot say...I have two 1080tis, LOL. I could try this with other models and see if they get similar results. I may try some bluejaunte characters. I wonder if the file size of the normal maps have an effect. Some models have normal maps in less compressed formats that are huge.

    Which brings up another question, how about VRAM use? Turning off a bunch of normal and bump maps may help VRAM, depending on how much VRAM each HD subdivision takes. There are lot of things to look at here. I am thinking we might be able to save VRAM skipping the normals and using HD. That could be a big win for those looking to squeeze as much into their scene as they can.

    Yeah, it's an interesting topic, imo - it would be neat to do some more testing to see if there is a way to pin down "optimal" set up for speed for different types of renders. However, there are so many different variables that can factor in performance and render speed, that it might be difficult to pinpoint "optimal" setups that are "universal" across different machines and video cards (not to mention different versions of Daz Studio as well). Still, I find the subject pretty interesting and it would be nice to be able to pinpoint more optimal surface settings and HD vs Normals vs Bump usage that could make more clear what may be more useful for different types of scenes. 

    I did some testing with a bluejaunte character, and found some similar results. Using the normal maps took a few seconds longer. However, what I discovered with this character is that the HD shape is not a replacement for the normal maps. They work together to complete the character, so removing one or the other was not ideal. I imagine a lot of non DO characters are like that.

    So for this to work, the characters in question must use HD as a full replacement for normal maps. It is likely that only Daz Originals do this, since the HD morph is usually sold as a separate product.

    But I did get some data. Increasing the subD from 1 to 3 had almost no effect on render times, it didn't even effect VRAM usage much. SubD 5 however ballooned both quite a bit. SubD 5 used over 1GB more VRAM and took over a minute longer to render. I feel pretty confident that this trend would hold up for a lot of other characters. Deleting the normal maps improved render times by 20 seconds in a 2 minute render, and all levels of subD still rendered faster  without normals, except for 5.

    However, I don't have a ton of HD morphs for DO's. I have Zelara's. And looking at her, she has separate character presets. Zelara HD has her own preset, so I loaded both. It turns out that loading Zelara HD's preset contains no normal maps. I cannot believe I never noticed that. I made a render of her two versions side by side at 6000 pixels, and the difference is very hard to spot, if at all. I will try some more testing on her tomorrow to see if the HD renders faster.

    I might make a separate thread to avoid cluttering this one. Or you can. Doesn't matter.

    Yeah I believe all the Daz Original "Official 8" HD figures load without any normal maps. And I've tested the HD vs Normal Maps again and consistently keep seeing slightly faster render times with HD with No Normal Maps (or Normal Maps dialled to 0) vs NON-HD figures with Normal Maps. If you end up starting a thread about it let me know. I'd love to check it out. :) Maybe we could get people with other video cards to also do a couple of test renders. I find it pretty interesting since I always thought Normal Maps where a good replacement for HDs that gave faster render times vs HD. It would be interesting if that turns out not to be the case - with the tests I've done so far, it's kind of starting to look like that. lol So weird.

    I could be wrong, but I think as far as VRAM is concerned, dialing a texture to zero may still load the texture in memory. I could possibly check that.

    I think that we all just have normal maps so ingrained into model making that we probably do not consider the possibility of them no longer being necessary. For games, they do things differently. Like the new Final Fantasy 7 Remake, which has pretty nice graphics. The characters have 3 textures per surface at most. The face has the base color, a normal, and a gloss map. So no bump at all, the normal basically handles that. The face mesh is actually pretty high poly, more than a base Genesis, even though it is a PS4 game. However it is not as dense as a HD subD mesh. It is running on outdated hardware. There is going to be a massive polygon increase on the next generation consoles. We will soon see gaming models with significantly higher poly counts than Daz Genesis, even at HD subD.

    I am thinking this change has come as Daz models use more and more maps. We used to see 3 or 4 textures per surface. But today that is shifting as people pursue more realistic skin. So now we not only have more textures per surface than before, but those textures are often larger file sizes. Even when we use the same texture, we may use it for different settings, like a base color is used in the translucency map. For ever new setting, Iray has to resolve these. And as has been pointed out in the past, ray tracing is only one short part of Iray rendering. Most of the render process is resolving the shaders. And what have we done? We have made shaders much more complicated today. So I think that is probably the big factor here. Perhaps testing out past generations of Genesis HD will see different results because those figures did not have as many surface settings and textures.

  • Patrick TynerPatrick Tyner Posts: 640
    I hate that due to waiting on payday and the higher sales price that I missed the "alien vs trooper" bundle! This one was all around great except the price was higher than I could get together in the weeks time.
  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679

    I'm sure it will go on a better sale in time. You know the saying,

  • benniewoodellbenniewoodell Posts: 1,986
    edited August 2020

    As soon as midnight rolled around the other day, I used my PC coupon to snag Tamati and did a render last night of the PI character I've wanted to create for a couple of years, and I think he fits the character perfectly. He renders great! 

    Rex is on the case.jpg
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    Post edited by benniewoodell on
  • RenderScot3DRenderScot3D Posts: 167
    edited August 2020

    Sometimes being out the loop is better Tamati here love the character

     

    Post edited by RenderScot3D on
  • NorthOf45NorthOf45 Posts: 5,551
    edited June 2021

    So, what has happened to Tamati? Kwan 8 has been completely expunged from the character. Of course, the Readme gives no hint of why, and the product page hasn't been updated, but the zip file has a new name and the metadata installs a different product (Tamati HD for Genesis 8 Male).

    You can see the "new" Tamati in  The "Dial Them Out" Thread 

    Post edited by NorthOf45 on
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